Bil Browning

Dungy "embraces" homophobia

Filed By Bil Browning | March 21, 2007 7:10 AM | comments

Filed in: Entertainment, Living, Living, Marriage Equality, The Movement
Tags: Curt Smith, homophobic behavior, Indiana Family Institute, Indianapolis Colts, marriage, SJR-7, Tony Dungy

At last night's Indiana Family Institute dinner, Colts coach Tony Dungy announced his support of SJR-7 and his belief in the superiority of heterosexual marriage. Reporter Bobby King called shortly after the dinner for a quote and I provided one for the story.

With the committee hearing on SJR-7 in a couple hours, I don't have much time right now to blog about the story. Suffice it to say, there will be a lot of LGBT fans out there today who won't be supporting the Colts anymore. After all, when the head coach publicly states that part of the Colts fan base should be second-class citizens, you can't expect those same fans to support the team.

I'd like a refund on my portion of the taxes that's going to build the Colts that new stadium. Go ask IFI for my portion. I hear they have a lot of extra money now...

"IFI is saying what the Lord says," Dungy said. "You can take that and make your decision on which way you want to be. I'm on the Lord's side."

The coach said his comments shouldn't be taken as gay bashing, but rather his views on the matter as he sees them from a perspective of faith.

"We're not anti- anything else. We're not trying to downgrade anyone else. But we're trying to promote the family -- family values the Lord's way," Dungy said.
...
Bil Browning, managing editor of bilerico.com, a blog that focuses on gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender issues in Indiana, was surprised to learn of Dungy's remarks.

"It is unfortunate that coach Dungy has chosen to align himself with the Indiana Family Institute," he said. "The Colts were supported this season by all of their fans -- gay and straight."


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Jen Jorczak | March 21, 2007 9:02 AM

And yet I heard Tony Dungy on a radio commerical for The Villages, a foster/adoption agency that I know is gay-friendly. I'm so confused.

This story makes me sad. I've supported the Colts even through the tough years. I'm only 22 and most of my life has been spent watching the Colts and being dissappointed one season after another but I stuck by them. Now coach Dungy thinks that just because I'm a female and my life partner is a female we should be second class citizens. Dungy you have not only made yourself look bad in the eyes of all of us homosexual fans but you have lost an avid supporter. I will continue to support the players but as for you Tony I no longer acknowledge you as the once great coach and man that you have portrayed yourself to be.

I, for one, will be rooting against the Colts from now on. I'm also going to be finding great places to eat and visit outside of the Colts Tax Prison every GLBT citizen in Central Indiana is trapped in. I encourage those former GLBT fans to drive out to the Colts Complex -- and wow do they have a "complex" now -- and give them all your Colts gear with a letter stating your opinion on this issue.

Since when does being a great man mean you accept every lifestyle that exists? You obviously don't accept his stance against same sex marriage.

I am the lead blogger at the #1 Colts blog on the net (Stampede Blue), and as a Colts fan I am very upset by Dungy's comments, and I am not alone. Many Colts fans, straight and gay, think his speech lacks the decency we have come to expect from him. Here's what one of my readers said:

Dungy made his name as a football coach, not a politician or a preacher. It's very annoying to hear him using his fame from the Superbowl to espouse what some people will paint as hate speech, because that's what people in politics do and he's invited that ilk in. I wouldn't personally go that far, but it's certainly distasteful and probably not something you want a representative of your multi million dollar organization doing.

Certainly he has a right to say what he did and the feel the way he does, but it's still disappointing to see a guy squander such a tremendous amount of goodwill he has built up. Once you inject politics into anything, you spoil it. Sports is supposed to be a reprieve from that crap. Even if Tony had come out and said gay marriage should be legalized, I'd still be disappointed in him.

Ugh. I just spent ten minutes reading the comments left on the Star story and am saddened by so many things--the sheer bigotry, the mean-spiritedness, the utter lack of rational thought. How can so many of the pro-Dungy folks have missed the point that we are not angry because Dungy exercised his right to state his beliefs in a public forum, but because he exercised that right in the service of legislation designed to deny civil rights to a group of people solely on the basis of those religious beliefs?

I am tired to death of conservative Christians claiming their religious freedom is jeapordized when non-conservative Christians are not compelled to live under religious dictates.

I don't think Mr. Dungy said that anyone should be considered a second class citizen. People should be able to speak up and voice their beliefs without having to worry about backlash from the homosexual community. Mr. Dungy has expressed many times that he is a Christian and a person that strongly believes in his faith. Why should he turn against that?

Dungy has a right to express his opinion. It was done respectfully and without malice. While I do not agree with what he had to say, I certainly think he should be able to say it without his intent or comments being distorted. Have we become so insecure in our own sexuality that we must resort to distortion or outright lies to discredit a person rather than debate their positions. Let's face facts, the gay community has for years lost credibility because of just this type of response. Until and if we decide to hear other points of view without immediately discrediting the person, we are doomed for failure. Mr. Dunghy is a good Christian man that respects all people. His views are conservative without apology... and frankly none is needed. This does not make him a bigot or homophobic. It makes him conservative in his beliefs. Good for him. If he has the strength of his convictions, I applaud him while respectfully disagreeing.
Shame on anyone that slams this man for expressing his opinion in a conservative forum.

I thought America was a land of free speech?
I thought America was tolerant?
Everyone here has a right to their opinion...
Coach Dungy is not gay-bashing, he is simply living out his lifestyle and proclaiming it such.
If you have a different lifestyle then him, you have a forum. Coach Dungy never used anyone's name for ridicule or bashing, people here on this forum are doing just that.
I have listened to Elton John since the seventies, his marriage to a man did not have me stop listening to his music or bash him. He still is an amazing musician. Coach Dungy is not gay, he is still an amazing football coach, remember the Super Bowl.
Please no name calling.
Thank you.

Once again we go with the "He's a Christian so he's allowed to be a heterosexual supremacist" argument. Let's think about a few things. First, he interprets the Bible in a pretty strange way. He completely ignores Jesus' calls to social justice (pretty much the point of the gospels) and focuses on an off-handed comment by Paul regarding a pagan temple ritual. Unless he's even sillier and is saying that Levitican law should be Hoosier law (was there shrimp served last night?) When you have such a distorted interpretation of the Bible, then, ummm, maybe you're seeing what you want to????

Second, no one's saying that he shouldn't have the First Amendment right to say something - they're saying that since he gets an additional forum that none of us get - because of the tax dollars that we all pay - that he should use it responsibly. And all the "He should be able to talk without a homosexual backlash" arguments are basically saying that he gets the right to free speech, but the rest of us should shut up and go home. Yep, that makes sense.

Look, if he's really just trying to make Indiana into a theocracy, then why just pick that one thing - marriage equality - and not everything else? Why not force businesses to shut down on Sunday? Why not impose the death penalty for talking back to your parents? Why not ban mixed fabrics?

How come supposed Biblical scholars never answer these questions?

Thinking BIG and and not FULLY formed and WAY out of the box:

I wonder if there's a way to convince the NFL owners not to allow the Super Bowl in a state that is unfriendly to gays. Indy is up against an Arizona city for Super Bowl XLV, and if we could make a big deal about Arizona being gay-friendlier than Indiana (and illustrate the gay football base?), perhaps that would make an impact on how Hoosiers view Tony Dungy, the Colts, and the same-sex marriage amendment...

Like, start a small but powerful "No to Indianapolis2011" campaign and pledge cash money in favor of Phoenix's bid?

Thanks for sharing your comments, everyone. I hope those of you who are new to the blog continue to come back and dialogue with us. Because that's my main criticism of Coach Dungy...

He has the right to say whatever he wants, true. But so do we. We have the right to criticize Coach Dungy for aligning himself with an organization that has historically demonized and discriminated against our community, And while we criticized his decision, at no point did he attempt to find out why we were upset. Instead, he decided to raise money for a group that claims that Jesus would have discriminated against gays and lesbians.

Now that's not very Christ-like is it? The only group I remember Christ "discriminating" against were the Pharisees who were more interested in forcing old laws on the population and lining their own pockets with gold. So it sounds to me like Christ would have had harsh words for the IFI - but not for people loving each other...

Louis: Well, no- Dungy isn't merely living his lifestyle. He's announced that he is for SJR-7, which if written into law, oppresses the gay community. It's one thing to say that you aren't in favor of something. It's quite another to support a law to outlaw it. The latter is what Dungy is doing.

Beyond that, I would advise Dungy to check in with the Jesus who said, "Whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers, that you do unto me".

Why is it that if a heterosexual opposes gay-marriage, they are automatically labeled a homophobic and/or a bigot by the fanatical gay community? I myself don't necessarily agree with Coach Dungy's views, but I respect his right to express them. The name-calling and general intolerance that I see on this forum regarding Dungy's remarks is the reason that most heterosexuals turn deaf ears to the gay cause(s).
Get over yourselves; Coach Dungy has a right to his opinion as does anybody else. As the poster "Robert" stated, until the gay community can listen to other points of view without immediately discrediting the person, it will be doomed for failure.

Just typical of the GLBT AGENDA....turning the comments by Coach Dungy to a 'homophobic' label. He was simply stating the faith beliefs he holds.

Being a Christian, I guess, involves opening up oneself to being bashed by others who proclaim to be so open to appreciating "other" viewpoints.

Perhaps if the huge ideation that says this lifestyle is so correct, was so certain of that, there would not be so much ink wasted debating.

Scriptures are very clear about the abomination which is promulgated by the GLBT community. Only time with God will secure the answers for you. Most people who want to justify their own agenda use it to bludgeon others. Or blame them for something they have a right to express. Only, for them, they want EXTRA rights, not just those inalienable rights afforded all of us! Go home. M

Joanie - because opposing gay marriage is homophobic.

Dungy's not stating his religious beliefs - he's advocating a political stance that takes away some of my basic civil rights. Damn right that's homophobic, and damned right I'm going to scream and shout about it.

Thanks to all the concern trolls who are oh so concerned with the viability of the gay rights movement that they say that we need to be open minded enough to accept that we are inferior. Obviously such people are motivated by their love of the GLBT community and are just worried that we're presenting our message in a way that hurts our cause. I am very sure that these people are helping out in the fight for our rights every day but are just very concerned that Dungy's right to Freedom of Speech is being impeded by a blog that disagrees with him.

I want to, from the bottom of my heart, thank these people for helping out the GLBT community and for only being motivated by our struggle.

I oppose gay marriage and I am gay. I also oppose these fools that like to scream homophobic at every possible chance. It is no different that screaming racism when none exists... just so that a person may be discredited! It is a tool that many groups will use to try and make their case... why... because they "feel" they have no real voice or position. I KNOW how I feel and I do not need to discredit someone because of their opinions. To say that Dungy is using tax dollars to further his opinion is ridiculous. He is a celebrity and a conservative...he has an opinion and has a right to express it. How many organizations out there with 5013C status support a "gay agenda?" Many!! So, scream away because a football coach expressd an opinion... and all the while wonder why mainstream society is at best ambivilent to our cause. A person that identifies themselves as Christian will most likely not accept homosexuality. It is not in their play book. I know and accept that. It is not my place to change everyone else....not my place to demonize everyone that does not see things as I do. You want to improve the position of gays in our community... stand up against those things that give "us" a bad name....sex with minors (not children per se, minors)...promiscuity and Rosie O'Donnell (okay, just kidding sort of about that last one!).
BTW, I am a law enforcement officer and I can tell you for a fact that the gay community... no matter the level of respect they are afforded... represent one of the biggest challenges to individual officers. The lack of respect for others and authority (even when it is fairly handled) is ridiculous. I have witnessed first hand things that have embarassed me as a gay man. Why is it such a bad thing to just try and fit into a community rather than follow the lead of fools and constantly look for trouble where none exists.
And BTW... any gay man that says that he knows of no incidences of sex between adults and minors is a flat out liar. I personally do not know anyone that hasn't been on the receiving or offending end of this. In the straight community these acts would be considered a sexual offense... in our community we nick name it and lie to ourselves and others about the truth.
Sorry... off topic... but is it any wonder why people take issue with us?
Rant over.

My mother met my dad while he was in the Arms Service in Germany and when he brought her over here 45 years ago she automatically became a US citizen after they got married.

Here we are in 2007 and I cannot keep my partner, a foreign national, in my country because our government doesn't recognize same-sex marriages.

Dungy is a bigot and is aligning himself with the notorious 'family' institute who are just as fringe-worthy as the KKK. I wonder how Dungy feels about aligning himself with the likes of the KKK?

How amazing it is that these people hide behind the bible to espouse their hate. At least basketballer Hardaway's response -"I hate gays"- was honest and visceral.

One last comment before I go back to work.

Robert said:
"I personally do not know anyone that hasn't been on the receiving or offending end of this."

Hi, my name is Alex. I'm gay. When I was a minor I did not have a sexual or otherwise inappropriate relationship with an adult. I was not molested or raped either. Those are good things. Now, as an adult, I have not had a sexual or otherwise inappropriate relationship with a minor. I've pretty much exclusively dated older (not that one has to to be appropriate).

There, now you know one person. I think you should expand your circle to incorporate a few new gay friends.

Of course, I doubt you're gay anyway. Too many concern trolls... why can't heterosexual supremacists just be honest abotu where they're coming from?

Since I don't know you... I will take your word for it. Are you asaying 5that you know of No one or a majority of gay people that have not experienced this?

As far as you not buying that I am gay... well, that is just another attempt to discredit anyone that has a message that isn't "welcome." Believe what you like.

I think the part that angers me the most about Coach Dungy's support of SJR-7 is the damage that the amendment can have on Indiana society. Ohio's amendment which is similar to the one proposed here, has had the unexpected consequence of setting free domestic violence offenders. After all, according to the amendment if you're not married you don't get any of the benefits of marriage. The way Indiana law is worded, "domestic violence" occurs between two spouses or two people living together as spouses. Therefore, all unmarried couples - gay or straight - can no longer be protected by domestic violence laws. Surely, we can agree that Coach Dungy doesn't really support setting domestic violence offenders free...

Instead the Coach has spoken based on his religious beliefs. And that's fine - he's entitled to be as religious or non-religious as he wishes. However, when his religious beliefs start to interfere with my right to protect my family then we're going to run into problems. As the old legal saying goes, "Your rights end where mine begin." Would it be appropriate for Muslims to demand an amendment against eating pork that would affect the entire state? Should Christians also be advocating for a ban on shrimp (which is also an abomination in Leviticus)? How about those Christians who believe that there's no need for a doctor since God has a plan for them? Should doctors be banned? This is a slippery slope to say the least.

My point is this - Coach Dungy should concern himself with football. It's what he knows best - obviously. He's great at coaching. By not researching the group he endorsed (which claims that Jesus would discriminate against gays and lesbians and that SpongeBob SquarePants makes you gay...) he did a disservice not only to himself but to his fans - both gay and straight.

Robert - Here's another voice chiming in that was neither molested nor has ever had a sexual relationship with a minor. When my girlfriend gets home, she'll chime in to tell you the same, too.

I can call my friends Dan, Doug, Joe, Douglas, Ken, Josh and Todd, and they'll all tell you the same thing; we've had this discussion several times over the past 20 years that we've known each other.

In fact, I'd say most of the gay people I know have never been molested, and are in happy relationships with consenting adults.

It sounds to me like you just hang out with some really sleazy, creepy people. Try finding some new gay friends.

I just have to point this out. It's the best e-mail I've gotten today from right-wing fundies upset over my mention in the article.

"Tony Dungy opposes homosexuality because he's a Christian like me motherfucker. Fuck you. Fuck you. Fuck you."

Now that's showing the love of Christ...

Geez.

As I mentioned earlier, I am in law enforcement. The right to protect your family is in no way limited. Just because there would be no ability to use the domestic violence provision in the law (if you are correct about this) that does not mean that other assault provisions already existing within the crime code framework would not be sufficient to offer protection. In fact, I can tell you that it may afford you even more protection as courts are a bit more likely to be conservative in their adjudication of criminal statutes outside of the "family" structure.

Still Colts Blue | March 21, 2007 6:43 PM

I'm angry as hell that Coach Dungy feels he needs to impose his interpretation of Christian belief on me, a fellow (but gay) Christian).

He is free to do such as a fellow Christian. He and dear ole' Margaret from above posts, can preach to me all they want. My sexuality is not an adoimination according to God's word. In any sense of that Word. If they beleive so, they're wrong.

That he preaches from his Colts pulpit is a little disturbing. But I won't abandon my support for the team over this issue.

Cause, see, I know for a fact that the good coach has some of us very, very close to him in that Colts organization, and he may not even know it.

On top of it all, Tony's and my Christian beliefs have no place in our revered Constitution. Period.

Allen J. Lopp | March 21, 2007 7:22 PM

Tony Dungy: "IFI is saying what the Lord says."

I dare Tony Dungy or anyone else to cite one place in the Bible where Jesus of Nazareth spoke about same-sex couples. He did not express approval, nor did he ever express condemnation --- the truth is that He was totally silent on the subject.

The closest He came to making any such statement is at Matthew 19:12, where he mentioned privately with his disciples that some men are "eunuchs so born from their mother's womb" --- today we think that the word "eunuch" means a castrated man, but the corresponding Greek word two thousand years ago referred to any man unsuitable or uninterested in becoming a husband and/or father ... in other words, the gay men of the time were included in the category known as "eunuchs," as well as other men not destined to become fathers for whatever other reason. If Jesus had felt the need to speak against any particular type of eunuch, this passage would have been a perfect opportunity for Him to do so. But He didn't.

His silence on the subject is very significant, especially when we consider that the Gospel of John refers to Jesus as "the Word" --- meaning the Word of God incarnated as a human. If Jesus was "the Word" and God disapproved of same-sex couples, then wouldn't Jesus have had the responsibility to speak out at least once? But He did not. Ever. And we can't just say, "Oh, he forgot," or "Oh, the gospel writers forgot to write down that part."

Tony Dungy, and all anti-gay Christians in general, are not promoting anything that Jesus Himself said. What they are repeating is the anti-gay prejudice of the Christian Church on earth, which did not develop the position that same-sex couples are sinful until about the twelth century. (In fact, the first church council to make a pronouncement that homosexual acts were to be punished was Lateran III in 1179.)

Anti-gay Christians everywhere, you are guilty of putting hateful words in Jesus' mouth. True, everyone alive today might only be repeating something that someone, now dead, taught you as children --- but it was a lie and a corruption then, and it is a lie and corruption today. You may not be responsible for what you were once taught, but you are responsible for what you say today --- and if today you are not willing to go back to your Bibles and read them for yourselves, then you are guilty of corrupting the message of Jesus just as much as were the bigots who taught you this foolishness fifteen, thirty or sixty years ago.

What enrages me me is not only that a religious viewpoint is being used to justify a political measure, but the religious viewpoint itself is a fabrication, a false product of historical prejudice, pure and simple.

Then there is this crap about "loving the sinner but hating the sin." You made up the sin yourself! It is your excuse to condemn the innocent, a harmless group that you like to imagine yourself to be better than! Had love between men or love between women been a sin, Jesus would not have overlooked explaining that.

I am so fed up! Evangelical Christians (including Tony Dungy), perhaps you are the ones that Jesus spoke of when He said, "Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves." You speak of Jesus' love and inclusiveness, but you work to spread lies, injustice and divisiveness. SJR-7 is merely the latest version of your mistaken self-righteousness which in truth is anti-justice, anti-love, anti-Christian, and anti-Jesus.


Robert,
my name is Kevin and I have never been molested or raped as a child, nor have I EVER engaged in anything even remotely sexual with anyone under the age of 21.

Now you can add another gay to the list.

Margaret,
please don't tell me to "go home". I am home. Right here in good old Indiana, whether you like it or not.

Personally, I'm not in this battle against Dungy. He's an outspoken, conservative christian and a lot of christians are in support of SJR7. Yes, I was disapointed he verbalized his support but verbally supporting it and actually going after us a la Eric Miller are two different things. My personal opinion is that there are bigger fish to fry. If that makes me a bad homo then so be it. I'm picking and choosing my battles and this isn't one for me. Eric Miller, Micah Clark, et al., now THERE are some assholes.

Hey Robert, add me to the list of gays that have not been molested nor have I ever been sexually engaged with anyone younger than 21. I agree with Steph, dude. You have some pretty creepy friends.

I also think that you have some major self-loathing issues that should probably be addressed.

Counseling might be helpful for you in the future.

A year or so ago when Jamie Dungy, Tony Dungy's 19-year-old son, committed suicide, I was close friends with a co-worker who belonged to Dungy's Northside New Era Baptist Church. Naturally we talked about the tragedy; and I was told that it was understood by some New Era members that Jamie killed himself soon after his father learned that Jamie was gay. My friend didn't don't know exactly what Coach Dungy said to his son, but one can imagine. My friend believes that a beautiful young man took his own life because his father refused to accept him. Ever since then, the sight of Tony Dungy makes me ill. It is one thing to believe homosexuality is wrong; it is quite another to be so rigid in that belief as to refuse to accept one's own son. But to go public with his anti-gay self-rightiousness after what happened to Jamie is absolutely unforgivable.

Chiming in late (for Robert), but I wanted to add one more name -- mine -- to the list of gay people who isn't acquainted with a single pedophile and doesn't know anyone who was molested.

How are we supposed to fight these stereotypes when they exist even within our own community? Pathetic.

Robert,

I'm a 26yr old gay dude and I've never molested nor been molested by anyone.

Please don't accuse us of lying when we say we have no personal experience of sexual abuse in our lives.

If you are the one who has experienced sexual abuse please accept my sincere apologies.

Scott asked how are we supposed to fight these stereotypes when they exist within our own community.

When I first read "gay cop" Robert's post.. my BS detectors went off big time. He just needed to put in something about our "gay agenda" and my detector would have blown a fuse. We may have stereotypes existing within our communities.. like all communities, but Robert isn't one of them. More like a plant IMO!

What bothers me about the Dungy thing is how he's being used by Big Religion. He accepted his "award" at a FUND RAISER! He helped them raise over 75k. I'd like to think Dungy is just as ignorant as some of the Star commenters and doesn't know any better. It would help explain things. There's a huge learning curve on this issue and most people can't get past the "gay marriage" religious slant, intentionally played out.

If Robert is really a gay man then I'll eat my hat. I'd believe he's a cop though - he sounds like someone from Indy Undercover's site... Yikes!

"What bothers me about the Dungy thing is how he's being used by Big Religion. He accepted his "award" at a FUND RAISER!"

Excellent point, Mike. In all the instances where I've won an award for being an activist, I've never had to raise money for the org when I got my award. Dungy can be sincere in his beliefs but the IFI is sincere in their desire to raise money off his fame.

After knowing what Dungy's views are it makes one wonder why his son committed suicide... how sad is this world we live in :(

I do not think Dungy is an ignorant man.

That said there can only be one conclusion. He's as hatefully bigoted as the IFI/FotF group that slings all the lies it can about gay peoples and which he freely associates and fund-raises.

Wait a second.... that makes him an ignorant man. Isn't that a conundrum?

Put me on the side opposite of 'the Robert' also.

"As far as you not buying that I am gay... well, that is just another attempt to discredit anyone that has a message that isn't "welcome." Believe what you like."

Yeah, a gay guy would never have written that. His response would have started with "Mary, please" and ended with a challenge to a deep-throating contest, all in jest, of course. I'm not trying to discredit you - just to take away the expert-on-the-gays status that you're disingenuously giving yourself. Oh, wait, that would discredit you. OOPS!

You can call someone a bigot all you want. Just don't use your faulty information to make the fact you can't marry someone of the same sex the biggest injustice of the last 1000 years.

"heterosexual supremacist"

Makes me laugh. My doctor is a "thin supremacist". My dentist is a "tooth care supremacist". My teacher was an "education supremacist". Oh and did I mention my insurance salesman... thats right he's a "insurance supremacist". I mean they're always trying to push their thin, healthy teeth, smart and safe ideas on me.

Alex is just funny. Also the guy who swore and then said he'd pray for you was pretty funny as well.

Alex... I never claimed to be an expert.... just my experinece. Sounds like a lot of genuine and some not so genuine replies here. Also, the rest of your reply is what people hate about gays.

Steph... I should have qualified the post to gay men.

Lori...it's funny you say something about self loathing since I have viewed some of the ugly posts here as a reflection of just that. Not uncommon in our community.

Yep, I am a cop... never been to Indy though... I am an east coast kind of guy.

Someone asked about fighting the stereotypes and them existing in our own community...well, I just state the things I have seen and experienced. It doesn't make my friends creepy that their first gay experineces were with older men... it makes them victims of assault. And whoever offered up apologies to me... thank you... and yes, I was.

I am out of here since it is obvious that if you don't follow the thought of the board you get discredited. I have better things to do with my time.

The Robert

And Bill... the idiot that wrotew that email is an asshole... no doubt about it.... but he is no different than others that disrespectfully slam Dunghy for his views... well, except for his less than judicious use of "fuck."

I think you brought up a great debate here and it is a shame that shit heads like that need to polarize the entire discussion.

I wonder if, as a supporter of using the state to recommend who can and cannot marry, if Mr. Dungy would support a ban on mixed-race marriages. Or denying blacks the right to marry?

One might think that one member of a minority group would rather be inspired to defend another instead of rushing to help oppress it.

Interesting. Let us, for the moment, address Robert's message independently of his identity (actual gay guy vs. concern troll). He impugns the legitimacy of the gay rights movement as a whole on the basis of what he considers distasteful behaviors. And if you run down that laundry list, you find they're the usual attributes of the stereotypical Teh Gay boogeyman cited by the anti-gay Right: predatory sex with underage people, personal history of sexual abuse, promiscuity, shrieking "persecution" when none exists, failure to respect others.

These are the things gay people must completely eliminate before the folks from Robert's school of thought will even begin to take us seriously enough to address questions of gay rights. But the catch is that these things will never be eliminated because they are largely fantasies in the minds of the people opposed to us. As a parent I cannot destroy the monster hiding under my son's bed because it does not actually exist. The monster only goes away when my son's mind embraces reality. Teh Gay boogeyman won't go away until people like Robert acknowledge the reality of gay people's existence, which requires embracing the totality of the human experience.

A steep order of business.

The disingenuosness of the Robert position is exposed by his response to the several posts from gay women here stating that they have never been sexually involved in an adult-minor relationship, either as kids or grownups (I'll add my name to that list; the only person who attempted to jump my bones when I was a 16-year-old girl was a straight man):

I should have qualified the post to gay men.

He's freely acknowledging that his "reasons" for pre-empting discussion of gay rights don't apply to half the gay people on the planet. But he--and those who share his mindset--shrugs it off and continues to paint the entire population with the same unfounded-stereotype brush, continues to ignore valid concerns about public figures parlaying their personal religious beliefs into repressive public policy, because reality does not square with the boogeyman he's constructed in his mind.


Perhaps it is time to make tee shirts that change the name of the Colts to the "Indiana Family Institute Colts." Obviously the club does not represent all of the residents of Indiana or of Indianapolis - just the ones which adhere to certain religious beliefs.

I've been reading the posts and I do have a few questions/comments.
1. While most comments have been interesting and legitimate arguments for which ever side, others tend to slam Mr. Dungy and the Colt organization. So, are you saying that because he came out and spoke against something you are for that he is representing the entire organization? So in this theory, if a player commits a murder, everyone in the club is guilty?
2. There have been a lot of references to the bible and to Jesus. I may be wrong here, but I get the feeling that only the New Testament is at use here. What about the Old Testament, what about scriptures there? What about Num 30:16 These are the statutes that the Lord commanded Moses, relating to a man and his wife, and a father and his young daughter who is still living in her father?s house. I've heard people in the past, (not saying on this board) have said that the New trumps the Old, and when Jesus was born, God did away with the "laws" of the Old. I could sit here and list all the verses that talk about marriage, wife, homosexuality, but I figure everyone has either heard then or read them, so I won't.
3. This question is for ED. Do you really think that race should be compared to sexual preferences?



Robert,

Have you sought counseling for the sexual abuse you experienced? Either with a licensed professional or a concerned friend.

I'm sorry this happened to you but please don't assume that we all have been abused or have in turn become abusers ourselves.

No one is denying your experience. However, if your experience includes what you've seen on the force... Well let me put it this way. If you're in the restaurant business then you're probably going to see a lot of hungry people. Or if you run a Lowe's or a Home Depot you're going to see a lot of people with houses that need fixing.

Our experiences in these situations are entirely valid but they do not accurately affect the population at large.

A similar exercise would be if I looked out my window and I said that all trees were either oak, fir, or maple, therefore all trees must be either of these three. I would be entirely correct to observe these trees outside my window but there are more diverse kinds of trees in the world than what I'm able to see through the window of my room.

Do you see what I'm saying here? Experience is a good thing, but sometimes we let experience cloud our judgement.

Allen J. Lopp | March 22, 2007 7:38 PM

In my post above regarding quotations attributed to Jesus in the New Testament, I limited my discussion specifically to the words of Jesus. Tony Dungy's exact quote was, "IFI says what the Lord says," and presuming that the Lord he was speaking of is Jesus, I sought to point out the error of Dungy's claim.

As a previous post noted, this blog is probably not the appropriate place to address each of the seven-or-so possible references to homosexuality in the Old Testament and the Epistles. I would like to point out, however, that it is highly enlightening in each case to go back to the text of the Original Languages and consider the many possible translation errors that appear in the English language Bibles that most of us are familiar with.

BTW, do any of the readers here know the correct meaning of the Greek word, "arsenokoitai"? It was translated in the King James Version as "sodomite" but many accomplished Bible scholars today are unsure of what the exact historical meaning of the word was. The best guess I've seen is that it meant an adult man who engaged in young boy-slave child rape, and the error in over-generalizing it to all homosexual men is obvious, I certainly hope.

Bil Brown is a joke. How come whenever someone has a different view, they have to align themselves as enemies. Tony Dungy is a fine man with his own personal view. He never said gays are second class citizens, bil puts his own words and phrases in. It's a bunch of crap, what about free speech and individuality. just cause your gay doesn't mean every one in the universe has to align with YOUR agenda. It's ok don't get so distraught, all you will do is further alienate more people

I don't have a problem with gay or Lesbian people, my fiance'is Bisexual herself and some of my best friends are Gays and Lesbians. I have read several articles about Gay and Lesbian marriage but this one just caught my attention the most. I agree that marriage should stay a union between man and woman, because that is what my faith preaches. I actually applaud Gay and Lesbian couples for being more open because I don't think anyone should hide who they are or what they believe. Now, here is my response of people talking of boycotting the Colts because of Tony Dungy. Just because Dungy supports that marriage should stay between men and women, he is not saying that you are a 2nd class citizen. If you read the Bible you will see that God says that marriage is a union of man and woman, not man and man, and not woman and woman. So if you want to be mad at someone be mad at God. Just because you are in a Gay or Lesbian relationship and cannot get married does not make you a 2nd class citizen. You chose your lifestyle so live with the limitations that GOD put on this earth. It is he who will judge you when your time comes or whatever religion you are, you will be judged by whatever god you serve, be it Jesus, Jehovah, Allah, Buddha whoever. I have no problem with Gay or Lesbian couples. I think people who support gay and lesbian couples like to make issues bigger than they are just because someone voices their opinion, but when someone in the gay or lesbian community wants to come out and voice their opinions, you want to be heard not listened to and not misunderstood. Well what is wrong with Dungy following what his faith preaches and stating that he supports that marriage should be kept as a union between man and woman? The people who say they will not support the Colts because of what Dungy said need to step back and take a look at yourself before you blurt out something crazy. Dungy did not say I hate gays like Hardaway dumb self did. He is saying that he supports what the bible preaches. So if you have a problem with that take it up with the man upstairs, you will not win that argument, no matter what religion you are.

I find it hard to understand those who say they will no longer be Colts fans or even Tony Dungy fans simply because he said what he believes any more than someone stating that they can not be a fan of a certain team just because there is a gay person on the team. If I only rooted for teams or people that thought just like me then I would have NO ONE to cheer for. I am a U.S. Soldier who is willing to stand up and fight for the rights of people to believe the way they want without persecution regardless of what those beliefs are. That includes fighting for the right to burn the flag and bad mouth those of us who are defending their right to do so. Ironic, huh. Whether or not I believe the same as one individual, I still respect the right for him to stand up for what he believes in.

Ironic to me that the gay community, always complaining about persecution, attacks anyone who doesn't share their progressive views. Mr. Dungy is free to speak his mind and I am proud that he did. The pro gay agenda would have us believe the idea that everyone in every back alley of every red state is homophobic and is constantly bashing gays. However, go ahead and speak your mind about conservative values and you are lableled a "homophobe". We should all be allowed to hold our views and express them freely. We should not hurt anyone for their views. Protection of a persons speech or freedom from harm for those views, are not the same as accepting or endorsing a persons lifestyle. Protection is not the same as entitlement. Mr. Dungy should be afforded the same courtesy that progressive activists have been fighting for during the last 30 years.

Leave Dungy alone he merely expressed his opinions on the issue like anybody else can.Gay and Lesbian activists voice their opinions on countless issues but the minute heterosexual people have a view that doesn't agree with theirs now we are bashing.What he said has nothing to do with his affiliation with the Colts or the NfL I agree with his stance but he even admits that he isn't gay bashing he is stating his stance on an issue.

I would like to comment that not everyone here is Christian or gay. I am a heterosexual and a non-Christian who also believes that what Coach Dungy said was not appropriate. The GLBT community has a lot of straight allies, not all of whom are Christian.

P.S. - I should add that the GLBT community also has a lot of heterosexual Christian allies too.

I know it has been awhile since all this has gone on, but I stumbled upon it and feel led to say this: Tony Dungy became a great coach because of his faith and the Christian man that he is. Without those beliefs holding him together, he would not have gotten as far as he has. So, he is freely allowed to believe whatever he wants, just like anyone else is. There is no rulebook that says he needs to support gays and don't knock him just because he doesn't. Go read his book, it explains a lot about the wonderful character this man has. So there.