Marti Abernathey

Closets Are For Clothes, Stealth Is For Planes

Filed By Marti Abernathey | September 09, 2007 6:06 PM | comments

Filed in: Living, Transgender & Intersex
Tags: closet cases, shame, stealth, transgender

Recently, I read a blog post about an FTM complaining about being judged by other transgender people about living "stealth." For those who don't know what stealth means, it's the equivalent of "living in the closet."

To those of you who feel the need to live secretly, I say this; if you wish to live your life in a closet that is your choice. But don't be surprised when I judge you for this. For as long as folks with passing privilege hide in their closets, there will be a stigma attached to transgender people because they will be defined by those that don't or aren't trying to pass. By being stealth, you're shaming yourself and those who are like you. If you want to do that, be my guest.

I don't think you bad, immoral, or unethical for living a "stealth" existence. I would say you're a coward and delusional, if you think that you can live stealth in today's world. There's always a path back to your birth gender, so you're about as stealth as Valerie Plame.

There is no integrity in hiding. There is no integrity in shame. You don't like that judgment? Tough shit. Those of us that choose to be out by choice get judged daily. But we do so because we know that the people that know and love us will have hearts and minds changed because of us. Because of them knowing us. If you aren't moving us forward, you're setting us back. You don't like that? Go hide in your closet.


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Maybe what those who live in stealth want is to live as Men and Women not Gender Queers and Transgenders.
For many of us, and yes that has always included me; what we want is to live as Man and Women First. We want to be parents, supervisors where we work, grandparents wives and husbands. We don’t want to be transsexuals, transgenders, queer-identified people gays and lesbians. Our lives revolve around things other then sexual preference and sexual orientation. We don’t eat, breath, or evangelize our sexual roots or preferences. There are far more important things in life. Things like the flowers growing in the flower box in the front yard we enjoy photographing. Things like helping the old lady up the street with her groceries. You know things like taking in a stray kitten or sitting with our equally stealth girlfriend and enjoying the moment.

Can you just answer one question for me please.
What is so bloody important about who you sleep with or what you plan on doing with your private parts that you have to tell the world?
Please answer that for me and maybe I will understand.

It is only a closet because you imagine it to be. Remember the scene in the first Matrix file where Neo meets the child prodigy.
Do you remember what the child prodigy said about the spoon.
The same holds true about the closet.

It is nothing more then a construct, if I ignore it the closet goes away because it never existed.

Nobody is hiding we are living the lives of Men and Women not some identity that represents our sex lives.

In my mind that is shallow, sex and sexual orientation is such a small part of the whole of life. Why not just be male or female.

Why segregate yourself from the whole of life by proclaiming to the world what you do in bed or how you decided to slice and dice your genitals. They don’t need to know that.

Take care,

Sue

"In my mind that is shallow, sex and sexual orientation is such a small part of the whole of life. Why not just be male or female.

Why segregate yourself from the whole of life by proclaiming to the world what you do in bed or how you decided to slice and dice your genitals. They
don?t need to know that."

Ask an African American the same question. Race is such a small part of life, why not just be an American?

If you're ashamed of who you are (a transsexual woman), that makes you something akin to an transgender version of "Uncle Tom."

Please tell me why isn’t your race so important that we don’t see it in your bio?

Since you brought race into this discussion.

Why don’t you identify with your race?
Or are you a human being first and foremost. (Like me)

Just wondering……

You always fall back on the tired old dogma that I must be ashamed of what you see as my history. You don’t know my history and the fact I lived as a woman since 1980 all the tranny dogma has long since worn off and I found out what was really important in life.

For the record I lived as a paleo-transgender woman for 20 years before making my female status legal. And moving on to live a normal life. The labels are on the trash heap of history. It was time to move on, time to mainstream myself and put all that silly gender stuff behind.

The most liberating thing in the world is to be known as the woman next door. Been there, done that when I finish my work here in SanDiego I am going back to that life. Right now there is work to be done here, we are after all obligated to help those who helped us on the road of life.

You haven’t answered my question I know this is your blog or at least you are given this space to express yourself and that is good. The question I brought up is worth answering by you or one of the other “activists”. A necessary part of activism is education and through education comes credibility. Once more please answer my question.

“Can you just answer one question for me please?
What is so bloody important about whom you sleep with or what you plan on doing with your private parts that you have to tell the world?
Please answer that for me and maybe I will understand.”

So please educate me I would be the better for it.


Take care,
Sue

Um... it would be rather redundant... considering I have a picture up. It's quite obvious what my race is.

Oh, and that's where you're wrong. I know your history quite well.

Lastly, who I love and who I am IS important.

One shouldn’t believe what they read about others on the Internet.
There is considerable back-story to what you think you know. The truth is you know very little about me, Just gossip from Autumn Sandeen and a page posted by some Internet nut case with a doctored photo. Most people know not to take what they read about others on the Internet with a grain of salt. If you want to know the truth we can talk about it some time. you could stand to benefit.

I suppose you are going to sidestep my question regarding why it is so important to you to be out?
Remember what I said about activism and education that is how one builds credibility with education.


I can’t tell from a low-rez picture what your race is, are you Jewish or American Indian or Slovak? Is it not as important to you as your gender identity is? Are ashamed of your heritage Just asking.

I read the blog you were referring to and read your post.
All you did was tear down his position you didn’t offer anything to support your own position. You employed a couple of straw man arguments and used profanity to defend your position.
Something I would never do.

http://ftmstraighttalk.blogspot.com/2007/09/i-have-no-moral-obligation-to-be-out-to.html

An activist who is on top of things will use the other side as ground to stand on, sighting reasons for why they are driven to do what they do.

Why are you afraid to answer an honest and sincere question?

I am here to find answers and to caution people from just blindly following someone without asking some basic questions first.

It is you and your movement you represent that you are hurting by not answering a few basic questions.

Take care,
Sue

When I meet someone, when I meet anyone am I supposed to explain my medical history? Essentially, should I describe my genitalia (past descriptions and current description)?

The fact that I have transitioned is not my sole defining feature. It is not even the primary focus of my life (*gasp*).

Is perfect stealth possible? No, not in today’s society. If someone wants to track you down or reveal your past, it is relatively simple to do (without resorting to some kind of Federal Witness Protection).

Are those who are not ‘Out and Proud’ setting things back? Are they doing nothing? I know many cases of people who have not disclosed their past that have changed company policies favorably, that argue and help people to change their minds about transitioners.

Because they don’t fight the fight the way YOU approve then you brand them as cowards? Because people value their own privacy to some extent then you assume they are doing nothing?

Privacy, apparently that is a concept that is alien to you, Marti. Not everyone craves the spotlight merely because of their medical history.

"When I meet someone, when I meet anyone am I supposed to explain my medical history? Essentially, should I describe"

There's a huge difference between stealth and advertising your medical history... and you know it.

"Are those who are not ‘Out and Proud’ setting things back?"

Yes. If you aren't moving us forward, you're moving us back. And as far as being helped by people that aren't out...they're more likely to be the first one to fire us, just so they're sure we won't out them somehow.

I never said you should put a spotlight on yourself. Being open about WHO YOU ARE isn't putting a spotlight on yourself. It's just being honest to the world.

"Because they don’t fight the fight the way YOU approve then you brand them as cowards? Because people value their own privacy to some extent then you assume they are doing nothing?"

In the big picture? Exactly... if people don't know we exist, AND KNOW US, they won't care about our plight...it won't be personal. So yes, that's exactly what I brand them.

Annie makes some good points.

Resighting some slogan “if you’re not moving us forward your moving us back” is a prime example of what I am talking about. To imply that one of “us” would be the first to fire one of “you” is ridiculous.

Also implying that we are cowards is a straw man tactic and doesn’t support in any way shape or form your position that being stealth is harmful. You have done much damage to your position on this issue.

I guess in your eyes I and others like me are Transgender Uncle Tom’s.

If that is all the better you can do to defend your position then I am okay with that.

I am many things transsexual is not one of them.
Formally Transsexual might be one of them.

Take care

Sue

Out of curiosity - since I don't know this - how much of it is a percentage of transgender folk who truly look like the preferred gender versus those who couldn't pass easily? What I'm trying to ask is "Is it more common with those who can pass to opt to go that route?"

It reminds me of the light skinned blacks that would live life as a white person more than the closet for some reason. Let me think on this one for a bit.

Hey, Sarah here, over from Don't Box Us. I really like The Bilerico Project, but I'm sorry to say that I find this post pretty offensive. If you want to live your life Out and proclaiming your roots/who you are—awesome! go for it! I completely support you and your right not to be judged for it. However, I don't really think it's your place to be condemning other people because of the way they choose to live their lives. You do not know these people; you have no possible way of knowing why they decide to live as they do. Wasn't the whole point of the GLBT movement that we should be allowed to live our lives without being condemned because of who we are/who we love/what our origninal sex was? Where is the difference between your condemnation and the condemnations of homophobes? Both condemnations are based on personal feelings about the way others lead their lives.

I'm not trying to attack you here, but I'm just wondering why we should be excluding/judging people who could be our allies. This sort of condemnation seems to me to only breed animosity within a group that is already facing a lot of discrimination. Why further discriminate against ourselves? I cannot disagree more with your statement that "If you aren't moving us forward, you're setting us back." In fact, I think it is exclusionary judgements like this that set us back, or rather, break us apart.

Also, you seem to be condemening people for passing, and therefore supposedly being ashamed of themselves. However, for some people, their sexual preference or gender identity ISN'T the main adjective they'd use to describe themselves. Maybe for you, it is. That's awesome. Rock it. But for others maybe it's more important to describe themselves as "jewish" or "practical, or "black-haried." That doesn't mean that they're ashamed of themselves.

I'm not trans, so I can't speak to that. However I can speak as a non-straight woman who frequently seems to pass as straight. If someone asked me for adjectives to describe myself, "gay" wouldn't even come into my head. Who I love is important to me, and my participation in the queer community is important to me as well, but it's just not something that I feel should be my main way of defining myself. I'm proud of who I am and I'm care about the equality movement, but I don't think who I love should change the way that people think about me. I just don't feel like it's pertinent information, basically. If it comes up in conversation I'm not going to hide it, but it's not something that makes me feel like I need to wear my hair in a fauxhawk just so that everyone I buy coffee from will know that I'm gay and therefore "not passing."

I'm not bashing ppl who don't pass here--if you can't pass or don't want to, then rock on. I'm just saying that I don't "decide" to pass. The way I wear my hair/clothes is not a statement about my sexuality. There is no "attempting to pass" or "attempting not to pass;" I just live my life the way I am. The assumptions that other people make about my sexuality say nothing about whether I'm cowardly or ashamed of myself. I'm completely proud of who I am. It's just that who I am doesn't happen to be someone who radiates "gay" from every pore. So please don't assume that just because I do pass, that I'm making a conscious decision to gain straight-privilege by hiding myself.

I have known several who did not look that passable who had good decorum jesters and a good voice who get on just fine living a stealth life. On the other hand I know of a few who had the money to perfect their look, took voice lesions and were instructed in decorum that decided to stay out. It’s not very simple to draw a line and say these folks don’t pass therefore they won’t go stealth and these folk do.

The reference Marty made to “passing privilege” is in part urban myth.
It is more often used by TS identifying folk to divide the community. Most of what it takes to “pass” are things that cost little or nothing to acquire. There is an almost sexist attitude that if you are TS you have to look like 25 and a supermodel. It’s the same dogma natal females have to fight.

I am not any example of beauty but I am accepted as female everywhere I go. The only things I have going for me are below average height, a feminine voice I worked on for several years, no atoms apple, and a feminine demeanor. That is it for the most part.

Some have the attitude that if they don’t look perfect they cannot live in stealth that is simply not true. To put it bluntly there are plenty of ugly men and woman out in the mainstream. There is nothing wrong with looking fair or even frumpy.

I hope that helps.

Just one observation before I leave you.
So many trans activists are Hetrophobic I don’t understand why or what that accomplishes. That unfortunately will do all of us harm.

Take care,
Sue


"I am many things transsexual is not one of them."

As far as I'm concerned, if you can't be honest to yourself about what you are... then I'm not going to waste my time responding to your comments.

That is truly sad and such a cop out.

it's not for me it's for everyone reading this blog entry.

and they will have those unanswered questions in the back of their mind when they read your next blog.

Take care

Sue

"There's a huge difference between stealth and advertising your medical history... and you know it."

No, actually disclosure is exactly that - describing your medical history.

"Yes. If you aren't moving us forward, you're moving us back. And as far as being helped by people that aren't out...they're more likely to be the first one to fire us, just so they're sure we won't out them somehow."

That is BS and you know it. The fallacy that you cannot help unless you are out is complete bunk.

"I never said you should put a spotlight on yourself. Being open about WHO YOU ARE isn't putting a spotlight on yourself. It's just being honest to the world."

I am honest about who I am. I am the product of my past and I am who I am RIGHT NOW. Not telling the world about every detail of my past is not being dishonest - it is privacy.

"In the big picture? Exactly... if people don't know we exist, AND KNOW US, they won't care about our plight...it won't be personal. So yes, that's exactly what I brand them."

You are freely throwing around loaded words like 'Coward' because people have not made the same choices as you. That is pretty egocentric and narrow-minded of you.

Shame on you.

Marti doesn’t understand privacy or keeping someone’s medical history to himself or herself. Marti is Non-Op and feels the world must bend to Marti’s will. The fact that Marti is calling you and I dishonest is another deflection tactic. Marti is not the only one who in the TransGender community to use that tactic.

I think it is sad that people like this call themselves activists and can’t give a Straight Answer to a lesbian woman.

Take care,
Sue



"You are freely throwing around loaded words like 'Coward' because people have not made the same choices as you. That is pretty egocentric and
narrow-minded of you."

Narrow minded? Maybe. But I'm walking the talk. Egocentric? You bet. I've paid for that right with my LIFE and my public advocacy.

"I am honest about who I am. I am the product of my past and I am who I am RIGHT NOW. Not telling the world about every detail of my past is not being dishonest - it is privacy."

You can color words however it makes you be able be be ok with yourself... but I don't have to go along with you just so you don't get your feelings hurt.

"Marti is Non-Op and feels the world must bend to Marti’s will."

It looks like you're the one that needs some education on personal history. I'm not non-op, I'm pre-op.

See, that didn't hurt a bit.

“You can color words however it makes you be able be be ok with yourself... but I don't have to go along with you just so you don't get your feelings hurt.”

That doesn’t give you the right to attack others for their choices.

You are doing the same you accuse those nasty Straight transphobic heterosexuals do to you.

Try to show some acceptance for how We identify for a change.

Thank you in advance.

Take care,
Sue


"Marti is Non-Op and feels the world must bend to Marti’s will."

"It looks like you're the one that needs some education on personal history. I'm not non-op, I'm pre-op.

See, that didn't hurt a bit."

I am not one to criticize one who changes her mind.

Take care

Sue

Marti,

What are you trying to accomplish with this attack on people wanting privacy? It seems to me you are just venting your anger on those who have made different decisions in their lives that conflict with your decisions for them.

Do you expect people to suddenly change? Bend to your will? Fit into the box you have decided they should be in?

Do you expect people to stop fighting for our rights IN THE WAY THEY SEE FIT and start doing it your way?

Sorry Marti, I do not grant you that control over my life.

I can only speak for myself. I find it so frustrating when dealing with other partners of transpeople who refuse to acknowledge their partners experience and instead choose to attempt to hide it. AT some point I can't help but fall back on the whole idea that "silence = death"

Sue, it seems silly to me that you spend so much energy arguing on an LGBT blog about how being LGBT doesn't matter in life. It matters enough for you to choose to be a part of our online project and discussions and I am glad you are. I do hope you will approach your reading with some semblance of an open mind.

Marti - it seems as always that you can critique the power of your writing by the passionate disagreement with it from those folks you were challenging in the first place. Great post.

Great post, Marti. For some reason, it seems the gay/queer bois in this thread are a lot more supportive of what you've said than the trans folk. Interesting.

I'd say this sounds a lot like a "strength in numbers" argument as well, not just "silence = death". And that seems to me rather hard to disprove.

Eric Georgantes | September 10, 2007 8:23 AM

Great post, Marti. For some reason, it seems the gay/queer bois in this thread are a lot more supportive of what you've said than the trans folk. Interesting.

I might just be reaching here, but I think that could have a lot to do with the fact that there's some equating of coming out as gay and coming out as transgendered. The gay men know how they feel about other gay men trying to pass as straight when they are either unable or make the decision not to, and so they can support the idea that Marti wants her fellow transfolk to also live their lives openly and not attempt to pass.

But I think that this is somewhat unfair, if only because I think that coming out as transgendered is much, much more risky than coming out as gay these days. And after I've spent years and years in the closet, and even today I don't tell people unless it happens to come up somehow, I don't feel right telling someone with much more at risk than me that they should come out immediately.

"For the record I lived as a paleo-transgender woman for 20 years before making my female status legal. And moving on to live a normal life. The labels are on the trash heap of history. It was time to move on, time to mainstream myself and put all that silly gender stuff behind."

Sue? how can you have struggled with gender identity enough to change it and then call it "silly gender stuff?"

I can't even begin to understand that comment.

Marti- thought provoking post. Hope you have your raincoat on...

I'm with Bruce on this one... I just don't get Sue in this thread.

You are constantly in the threads complaining that you're not lesbian and you're not transgender. You're just a woman now. And yet here you are in the comments section of an LGBTQ blog constantly hollering about how you don't fit in and don't identify with any of us. So why bother?

And am I the only one noticing the irony of calling out Marti as pre-op while bitching that your "medical decisions" are no one else's business. But apparently Marti's is? That's rather hypocritical... If you're going to frame your argument in either/or's (that same straw man argument you're complaining Marti is using...) than you should hold to your position.

And finally - I'll say this even though it might piss off even more trans commenters - I'd say you're trans. Period. You weren't born a woman. And nothing you can say or do will change your birth gender. What you have evolved to may be something different, but that thereby says that you've changed genders - hence, transgender. You may be a woman now, but you were born a man. That doesn't make you a "just" a woman. That makes you a woman that wanted to be a woman so badly you changed your gender - and that's trans.

And I think Marti is right. You're not helping the cause. You're trying to blend in and melt away into the establishment. It's your right to do so, but you can hardly claim that you're changing minds and hearts by keeping secrets. Light skinned blacks passing as white didn't help the African-American community and closeted queers don't help the fight for gay rights. You have to be involved to assist. And I don't know that coming on to an LGBTQ blog and proclaiming your non-identification with everyone else is helping anyone at all. Except maybe your need to pick a fight every time Marti or other trans contributors post...

Bil,

I am the one who brought up 'medical history' and I really could care less what the state of Marti's genitalia are. I never brought it up - I just don't care.

I did not transition to be Trans. I realize that many believe that is the sum of all existence of anyone who transitions. ALL that I am is someone who transitioned. It is not the sole focus of my life.

However, to say that I (and others like me) have done nothing is really showing your ignorance. There is a segment of those who have transitioned that do advocacy for a time (years, usually) then go on to do more in the background.

Not everyone needs to be on stage. Not everyone craves the limelight. There is good work that needs to be done that does not involve fully exposing our lives.

Apparently many cannot respect that and would prefer that we either do it their way or not at all.

Call me what you will. You have obviously chosen to permanently define me and others like me.

Bil – what you are arguing against is the right of people to self-identify. That’s essentially (get it?) fucked up.

Marti – I agree that passing must be challenged. But we are all passing. Maybe not as straight or cisgendered, but in different ways at different times we each pass as something or someone. The “You are passing. You are not passing” dichotomy that this post seems to perpetuate is simplistic and dangerous. I’d rather read posts where you dissect passing as a violent tool of oppression that simultaneously we use and is used against us.

Also, where were the clothes that you’re wearing made? Where was the food that you eat grown (or raised) and harvested and under what conditions for the workers and the environment? Are you benefiting from unsustainable consumption? In what ways do you actively challenge your white privilege on a daily basis, and in what ways do you fail? If you live in a city with rapid gentrification, what is your role in this process? Are you contributing to oppression on any level simply because it makes your life more comfortable?

Alex – I am a queer boy (not sure if you are differentiating that from queer boi).

I'll admit to the ignorance, Anne. I'm not trans - but I'm willing to learn. But calling me ignorant isn't really helping to advance your argument, is it?

I agree not everyone needs to be on stage. But is "passing" not being "on stage?" No one is asking you to do advocacy, from what I've seen - just not to deny your own history.

Bruce,
Being LGBT does matter Getting in the faces of people who have no desire to know what people do in bed and attacking Those of us who want to keep our medical history private is just plain wrong. I have many LGBT friends and guess what they support my position. Most of them are straight acting and have mainstreamed themselves. I read the articles posted here, most of them that is the Craig stuff became stale real fast sorry to say….

Eric,
It has nothing to do with imaginary closets; it has everything to do with being a woman First and being a member of female society.
As I asked Marti and received no answer what is so important about being in people’s faces regarding your genitals and what you do with them?
I am still looking for a good answer.


Sara,
To answer your question you mistakenly believe I was struggling for my gender identity that is not true. There was no struggle, my friends, coworkers and to a lesser extent family members got on just fine. The difference is I chose not to make unreasonable demands on those around me. We got on just fine and many of us back then did just that got along with the rest of society where possible,
I know the concept of getting along with straight people is alien to some in the GLBT because of widespread Hetrophobia. Now that I am a member of female society I just want to live my life without being called a coward or being told I’m ashamed my history or for that matter having to be the token tranny where I work.

Bill,
I never said I was not lesbian as a matter of fact I am. However I am not going to parade around with a label saying I am lesbian. I am female first, lesbian just happens to fall somewhere around number 4 on the list of labels I wear. Marti chose a long time ago to disclose her surgical status. And has continued to make it public. I on the other hand feel that is not for public consumption except in a support environment where other transitioning females are. Having you tell me how I was borne when I have found certain information about my genetics that I also choose not to share is chauvinistic. I see you are another who needs an education on Intersex issues. This is one of the reasons why the intersex community has nothing to do with the LGBT communities. For the record I didn’t change my gender, I changed my sex thank you. There was nothing wrong with my gender. I just needed to fix a birth defect. Rather I am helping the cause or not is a matter of perspective. My message in all the noise about LGBT issues is there is an alternative we can get along to go along and make our progress in the world. Considering the research that has been published in the last two years there is substantial evidance to indicate many of do have a birth defect and given that premise civil rights already exist. For those who choose to be transgender please stop dragging us into your fight. We don’t want your laws and we don’t want the attention it doesn’t apply to us. We ask for this out of respect the same respect you demand from the mainstream. Nobody is here picking fights the other side of the issue needs to be exposed. We have our rights also or have those who object to us living our lives forgotten that.

Anne,
Thank you.

Take care,
All of you Try to see our side.

Sue


It looks to me that we are parsing words on what one of the many labels in sexuality mean. Just like the discussion about bisexual and queer by Jessica Hoffman, it seems to me that Anne and Sue are parsing the meaning of transgender.

I may not be the most educated when it comes to trans issues, but most of the experts I've read or seen interviewed about trans issues state very clearly that the transition is a lifelong process. You may identify as your new gender, but you can never not be trans. That's probably a mangled way of explaining what I've read and heard, but I think it gets my point across.

To my mind, anyone who transitions from one gender to the other is transgender. I don't care if you've had surgery, not had surgery, or whatever. You will always be on some kind maintenance program (hormones, therapy, etc) to maintain your gender. I can see identifying as a woman, but you cannot escape trans just because you don't like the stigma.

I am sure it's scary to think you will have to live with a label that comes with all of this baggage and social stigma, but that's just life. I feel exactly the same way about gays and lesbians who live in the closet and deny who they are. You are setting back an entire group of people by denying your own gender identity and/or sexual orientation. You are claiming not to be from a group of people who are daily fighting for YOUR right to be who you want to be. It's bullshit to sit back and let others do the work for you. Why should you get a free ride when others are battered, scarred, or even killed standing up for your rights?

You have your right to privacy, certainly. But denying yourself to the very people who can and do support you is just hypocrisy and to some extent lunacy. You come to this blog and say you have transitioned, but you are no longer trans, you are a woman. Then why the hell are you here? You obviously identify in some way with trans or other queer identities or you'd be over in the breeder section of the web.

No one is saying you need to wear a sign that says, "I was once a man and now I'm a woman so shut up." or anything of the sort. It's just that you should, at the very least, be honest with yourself and others in your same situation.

I don't deny to myself that fact that I have transitioned. I don't deny that I have transitioned if I am asked politely (sometimes it is dangerous to admit). It does take a certain about of guts for someone to ask you describe your genitalia (at least in my circles).

I continue to fight for equal rights just NOT IN THE WAY YOU WANT ME TO.

I don't wear my transition on my sleeve, that is all. There are many around me who know, we just don't normally talk about it. We have other things to discuss. The fact that I transitioned is not the driving force of my life.

How exactly are people denying that they are trans? By not bringing it up? By changing their name? By having reconstruction surgery? By transitioning at all?

I kept my friends. I kept my family. Surprise, they remember my past! But I do not bring up sexual and medical matters at work or school (or the grocery).

Why do I come here? I do care about equal rights. I want to help. I just want to CHOOSE how I will do it. I do not want it chosen for me.

I am a fairly busy musician and am getting better at being a sculptor. Does adding the prefix 'trans-' in front of those add to my art? I also don't put 'non-trans-' in front.

I define myself. My work defines itself.

My past is there. It is easy enough to uncover. Because I don't use one aspect of it to define myself you call me a coward.

I have more depth than one aspect of my life. I can't apologize for that. I refuse to.

One issue that needs to be addressed is how outing oneself impacts the lives of transpeople.

I'm a lesbian and a transwoman (so is my girlfriend), there are examples where knowledge of trans identity will impact my experiences within lesbian spaces. If one wants to see more people out as trans then more work is needed to make being out more possible without retribution. Especially within LGB spaces.

I'm out as trans, I'm also a white college professor. My life situation allows me the safety to be out as trans (the issues regarding lesbian/women's spaces not withstanding). I can't fault people who are in living situations that being out could cost them their jobs or even their lives.

Its still not safe for people to be out as trans (compared to being gay and lesbian), and yes its important to be out in order to create change but I wouldn't want it to happen over anyone's dead body.

Emilia

At what point of meeting someone is it proper to describe your genitals? When do you ask them to describe theirs? (and accuse them of being ashamed if they won't)

At what point do you ask them to forget who you are and re-define you by your surgical history (or lack-of-surgery)?

Most GLBT people and I do include TG folk have no idea what it is to transition from one sex to the other. Whoever told you it was a life long process has little understanding of what it is to be borne with a female orientated brain. I would add Gender as you call it is a state of mind. Sex is a biological state of being.

I certainly don’t deny the people who have supported me, (used in the collective sense) (most of them are straight by the way) they recognize what it is to be borne with a female orientated brain and the need to fix a deformed body. This is the dividing line between what are true transsexuals and those folk who are transgender. A transgender person will live with their physical sex. A transsexual will be driven to change it at nearly any cost. Transsexuals go on to blend into mainstream society and live their lives as males or females. This is how it has been since the middle of the last century.

Let me add here I have no sense of superiority over TG folk in my eyes everyone is equal our differences simply add to the diversity of the human species. Half my friends are straight the other half are not.

Now for a little abbreviated history lesson;

In the early days it was not Gays and Lesbians who fought for Our right to have identification reflect the sex a person presents in society. And it wasn’t gays and lesbians who lobbied to allow birth certificates in many states to be changed to reflect the physical sex of post-operative males and females. It wasn’t gays and lesbians who did the educating in the 60’s 70’s and 80’s of the needs of TS folk.

The people who did all the hard work were professionals in healthcare and legal institutions who quietly and in the background made it all happen. Most of these people were straight a few were TS. This is exactly how it was here in California way before the rest of the nation even knew what was happening here. We actually worked to stay woodworked and live our lives as men and woman not transsexual or transgender men or women. We change our documentation to reflect our physical sex. We have those old documents sealed by court order or destroyed we see our past life as a lie imposed on us by those around us many not all leave their family friends and old careers behind to start the life they have worked hard to live. You never hear about these people because 95% (an estimate) could care less about GLBT rights they don’t need to be placed into a protected class of people.


On to being out…

The impression given here by Marti is if we don’t wear that sign that says “I was once a man and now I am a woman so shut up” then we are cowards and are harming The (their) movement, you see it’s not my movement nor is it the movement of the majority of people who have sex assignment every year. How do I know that? I run 2 support groups of my own and moderate 3 others. They deal with TS health and support. I am also president of the largest TG / TS support group in SanDiego. We are the only non-profit organization in SanDiego for and by TG and TS folk and we have been here since 1982. http://www.geocities.com/neutral-corner/ suffice it to say I see a lot of rank and file transfolk they are not all in agreement the idea that once you are trans you are always trans. To say that is the case is a contradiction of terms. Transition is a state of flux between stable states of being. All of the post-transition females I know are there and transition is a thing of the past that would include me.

My reason for remaining involved in the TG/TS communities is to inform and educate newcomers to the alternatives they have they don’t have to live with a label around their neck that only describes a short peace of their life. So far I have been successful in getting the message out.

Take care,

Sue

One issue that needs to be addressed is how outing oneself impacts the
lives of transpeople.

I'm a lesbian and a transwoman (so is my girlfriend), there are
examples where knowledge of trans identity will impact my experiences
within lesbian spaces. If one wants to see more people out as trans
then more work is needed to make being out more possible without
retribution. Including LGB spaces.

I'm out as trans, I'm also a white college professor. My life
situation allows me the safety to be out as trans (the issues
regarding lesbian/women's spaces not withstanding). I can't fault
people who are in living situations that being out could cost them
their jobs or even their lives.

Its still not safe for people to be out as trans (compared to being
gay and lesbian), and yes its important to be out in order to create
change but I wouldn't want it to happen over anyone's dead body.

Emilia

nick sed:

Alex – I am a queer boy (not sure if you are differentiating that from queer boi).
Yes. Yes I am.

There is some nuance that is being lost in this debate. One aspect is how trans sometimes becomes people's overarching identity to the detriment of other aspects of our lives. That coupled with the discrimination faced by transpeople will make people hesitant in identifying as trans. For example, a transwoman who is a blogger is told that she can't join a women's blogger group but is informed that she can join the transgender blogging group (this is made up). The problem is who gets to define one's life and what that means in regards to one's social life. So there may be more support for identifying as trans if people can be seen as trans and a woman (in my case) and not seen as trans or a woman.

"I'm a lesbian and a transwoman (so is my girlfriend), there are examples where knowledge of trans identity will impact my experiences within lesbian spaces. If one wants to see more people out as trans then more work is needed to make being out more possible without retribution. Including LGB spaces."

Which comes first, the chicken or the egg? The best education is one on one personal stories and lives.

"I'm out as trans, I'm also a white college professor. My life situation allows me the safety to be out as trans (the issues regarding lesbian/women's spaces not withstanding). I can't fault people who are in living situations that being out could cost them their jobs or even their lives."

As I've said before, stealth and "out" are two different things. Stealth is a total denial of your past life... even from partners, friends, and co-workers.

"At what point of meeting someone is it proper to describe your genitals? When do you ask them to describe theirs? (and accuse them of being ashamed if they won't)"

I've never said ANYTHING about genitals.

"At what point do you ask them to forget who you are and re-define you by your surgical history (or lack-of-surgery)?"

Do me a favor, if you're going to criticize my writing, READ IT. I've NEVER SAID that you have to run around telling people about your genitals.

"I agree that passing must be challenged. But we are all passing. Maybe not as straight or cisgendered, but in different ways at different times we each pass as something or someone. The “You are passing. You are not passing” dichotomy that this post seems to perpetuate is simplistic and dangerous."

Dangerous how? Post isn't about passing, but about stealth living.

"I’d rather read posts where you dissect passing as a violent tool of oppression that simultaneously we use and is used against us."

Well, I don't think Bil is forcing you to read my posts, is he? Those are all good questions. Why not take the reigns and do write about those things yourself?

There is a spectrum of 'outness'. Some of us chose (and had the choice) not lose friends and family.

You can decide to try and drop off the planet and start over but that is nearly impossible in this interconnected world.

Those who go completely underground are not likely to be reading this blog. Those who are here likely have someone in their life that knows of their past and possibly many who don't.

I saw your inflammatory tirade (and it is obvious that you meant to piss people off) as 'You have to tell EVERYONE about your past. Those of you who don't are likely to oppress the rest of us.'

In the comments you have now framed your argument in absolutes ("total denial of your past life") so no one is likely to fit into the category you attack.

As for me, I still guard my privacy and control (to the best of my ability) aspects of my past that would tend to dominate the conversation.

Marti – did you forget what you wrote in your original post!?

For as long as folks with passing privilege hide in their closets, there will be a stigma attached to transgender people because they will be defined by those that don't or aren't trying to pass.
[my] post isn't about passing, but about stealth living.

You obviously used the phrase “passing” in your original post, and are now are flat out misconstruing what you first wrote.

[Note: And for the record, Bil is not forcing you to read my comments either. But maybe he will pay me to be a fact-checker?]

Sue...

"I know the concept of getting along with straight people is alien to some in the GLBT because of widespread Hetrophobia. Now that I am a member of female society I just want to live my life without being called a coward or being told I’m ashamed my history or for that matter having to be the token tranny where I work."

Listen. I spend 90% of my life in the straight world. I'm raising three kids. I go to PTO meetings. I go to the most god awful 3rd grade wind ensembles and the person next to me is a straight man or woman who is holding my hand for support.

Yes, we can smile and clap through this.

I just had a mother of three come in and say, whatever help you need with the school (one of my kids has a homophobic, jerk teacher), count me in.

she's straight.

as are all the parents of the kids who I coach on my 2nd graders soccer team.

I have NEVER considered myself part of 'female society.' do you need to wear white gloves for that? because I'm screwed if you do.

Bottom line, for me? One of my sons is probably transgender. just entering puberty and it may all change but... I'm looking for ROLE MODELS for him.

not people who put that "silly gender stuff behind."

I'm stunned that changing gender was "easy" for you. I can understand being certain. Clear. Sure. But easy? was it easy when you were 12?

thank you, Marti, for being willing to be that person. someone who can say, yes, I was a man. I am a woman. I needed to be. so my son won't feel so alone.

You will take care of yourself, Sue. and you have every right to.

but maybe? maybe if you came and spent a few days with my kid? you'd change your mind.

"I have NEVER considered myself part of 'female society.' do you need to wear white gloves for that? because I'm screwed if you do."

Exactly. Female society as if it's a monolith? Maybe a nation of Stepford Wives?

"You obviously used the phrase “passing” in your original post, and are now are flat out misconstruing what you first wrote"

Thanks Nick for interpreting my own feelings on what I wrote. I certainly don't know what I said. :)

Because I MENTIONED passing doesn't mean that was the topic of the post.

"In the comments you have now framed your argument in absolutes ("total denial of your past life") so no one is likely to fit into the category you attack."

Um, that's what stealth IS. Stealth isn't being selective on who you tell. It's hiding your past from everyone. This is destructive on so many levels. If you can't be honest about who you are, you create an atmosphere where you can NEVER be close to anyone.

Emilia makes some good points LGB and T have a big problem with tolerance, which is sad because they demand it from the rest of the world. Lots of Transphobia in the LG communities and Massive Hetrophobia in the LGBT communities in general, reminds me of reverse discrimination against white people.
My choice to not be out has nothing to do with safety or job prospects frankly in the time I was out neither were issues. It was only when I moved to South Park here in SanDiego. That safety became an issue and harassment from the locals in Hillcrest (the local gay community) became a problem. Since I can defend myself the three attacks I rebuffed in Hillcrest were not a problem although there is a young adult who may not be able to have children anymore his friends carted him off after I defended myself. when I moved to Texas to help some friends with their business the year I spent living there with my girlfriend in stealth was the most liberating experience of my post transition life. it was nice to be known as the woman next door. It will be nice to get back there when I finish what I have to do here.

On your other comment Emilia being trans should never define someone or define their life. perhaps because some of us lead quiet and fulfilling lives maybe what some activists see as the problem. Maybe for whatever reason they cannot lead a quiet and fulfilling life in stealth. Just my two cents on that.


Marti said in another post..
“As I've said before, stealth and "out" are two different things. Stealth is a total denial of your past life... even from partners, friends, and co-workers.”

There are degrees of stealth (just like with airplanes) My girlfriend knows my employer I had in Texas knew My doctor knew and all my past friends know. Who else needs to know? Nobody. Sorry to say Marti as usual those who are not Post-Transition, seldom know or understand the life of a someone who is post-transition.

I shall save the passing commentary for another blog entry stay tuned….

Sara,
You’re the exception that proves the rule, to borrow an old phrase.
I did the very same things went to my daughter’s school plays, her IEP meetings and even brought about some change in her school.
The first one in SanDiego to have no tolerance towards bullying thanks in part to my rather unorthodox input. As I have said changing sex was easy I was borne with a female gender identity. Transition was painfully easy. The hardest part was changing documentation over. I have an FBI file from when I held a security clearance; things were held up for months at a time while they checked my background. Oh and yes; they do issue security clearances to people who are or were trans-identified. And no I wasn’t 12 I don’t know where you got that information but it is wrong. I came out in 1980 I was 24 at the time.
Sara I would be really curious where you and Marti get your information about me. There seems to be much misinformation out there I have no access to. I don’t think spending time with your kids would change my mind. I have 2 daughters (one stepdaughter) and five grandchildren. Three sadly I don’t get to see the other two I do get to see.

Take Care everyone

Sue


Marti I do find it interesting why you did mention “Passing”?
Most of us by the time we are 6 months into RLT drop usage of the word because “To Pass” is to represent yourself as something you are not. Crossdressers pass because they are men usually heterosexual who enjoy going out dressed up as women.

I ask again Marti why did you mention Passing Privilege in your blog post and what does it have to do with Stealth?

Take care

Sue

PS…
I have enjoyed this thread and this blog post it is one of your better ones since you started posting here.


OY.

Sue, my SON who I believe is struggling with gender issues is 12.

Not you.

Not about you. don't have any idea who you are. got an email from Bil telling me about this thread. Just getting to know this community.

Helloooooo.

I am not heterophobic. Mind you, I love my private time in queer circles, but I love my fellow suburban parents.

Well... there is this one couple... ugh. but that's about their Whine per hour speed not the fact that they are straight.

I'm not sure how I am the exception that proves the rule or how I have misinformation- I was simply saying that people who have transitioned and are open about the experience are great role models for young kids- like my son- who are struggling with their feelings.

my son is the 12 year old. Not you. sorry for the lack of clarity. I had coffee past three PM which means long winded explanations...

I think it's great you participated in your children's schools. I guess I ready Marti's post as a plea- no, demand- for more openness.

I was only trying to suggest it would help my kids.

but now I will be quiet and do some knitting.

and if you believe that... I have a bridge for you...

Wow Sara your sun has his hands full.
Sorry i misunderstood. :)

I am glad you have a sense of moderation regarding communities.
It sounds like you and I choose our friends based on their value and natural attraction, straight gay or otherwise.

Being a person who is not attacking the straight community and not attacking those of us who wish to not be out makes you the exception that proves the rule. You have a level of acceptance that is uncommon amongst GLTB folk. Not everyone is or should be out evangelizing for TG / TS interests. I did it for over five years while in transition and several years before that. There comes a time when we want to live our lives for ourselves and move on. I know a school teacher in northern California who did her part and moved on. Many would know her if I mentioned her name but I won’t. I found her presentation 7 years ago to be empowering. She did her public service and moved on to live a quiet life.
One thing I might mention regarding your son, children do adapt better then adults to change and to changing their own lives. I know this from personal experience I had my own issues to struggle with growing up as I was borne blind and had partial sight restored. I went on to build an electronics career that was very good to me and allowed me to retire early when my eyesight became worse. Kids have so much energy almost endless energy. It is remarkable what they can do. My daughter lived with the very same birth defect and is an example of adversity making a person stronger. Your son will do fine and live in a world of greater tolerance and acceptance then the one you and I grew up in.

Sara I think you are like me in the being quiet and compliant department.

Nice to hear from you.
Take Care

Sue

Marti writes: "...there will be a stigma attached to transgender people because they will be defined by those that don't or aren't trying to pass."

Marti, I think I understand what you're getting at, but I think you're making it a little too black-and-white.

Please forgive me for exaggerating (for the sake of emphasis), but it sounds like you're saying that the stigma is perpetuated because out transpeople are weird, freaky misfits who will always be shunned by society, while stealth transpeople are the nice, normal, well-adjusted ones who fit in. (Again, please forgive the exaggeration.)

Well, in my experience that's just not the way it is. I am out every day of my life, and working for positive change in the world. And I don't believe that my actions cause transpeople to be stigmatized. And I know lots of folks who will never pass but are still opening the hearts and minds of others to the trans experience.

Much of the persistent stereotyping of transgenders comes from the tabloid media's fascination with those among us who are in some way dysfunctional or crude. How often do you see well-adjusted people on Jerry Springer? Not often, because they don't bring in the ratings.

Do we need more transpeople to be out and working to change things? YES! Do we need all transpeople to be out? Hardly.

Please forgive me for exaggerating (for the sake of emphasis), but it sounds like you're saying that the stigma is perpetuated because out transpeople are weird, freaky misfits who will always be shunned by society, while stealth transpeople are the nice, normal, well-adjusted ones who fit in. (Again, please forgive the exaggeration.)

My point was that if only gender variant transgender people are visible, it skews how transgender people are viewed overall.

Hi Angle
The issue of transfolk being out or not already has a solution.
Those transfolk who want to be out keep the label.
Those who wish not to be out usually Don’t identify as trans.
There is no law that says they have to and no state or federal government form that declares you must identify as trans-anything.
Just Male or Female.

So when Marti addresses transfolk she is only addressing those who voluntarily wear the label. Just like the closet the label is an imaginary construct. Some day it will go the way of the Easter Bunny and Tooth Fairy.

Take care,
Sue

thoughtsonftm | September 12, 2007 10:08 AM

I'm sorry that you've chosen to contribute to the hatred and judgment hurled at stealth individuals by the "trans community". I would hope that most people would have better things to do with their time and blog space than to attack me.

"Closet" is a term from the gay community that has very little relevance to my life. disclosure or non-disclosure of my medical history is an issue of privacy and confidentiality.

if you actually read the rest of my blog, you will realize that I puzzle over some of the sacrifices required to live stealth, that I examine all the complexities of this issue.

Personally, I think that the tendency to judge others for their own personal decisions and paths is a much more serious problem to "the trans community" than any perceived or actual lack of visibility or poor representation. it mirrors the way in which non-transsexual society judges all TS, TG, and GQ people- regardless of whether or not they are stealth.

Your comment was deleted because it was a vehement personal attack. Feel free to re-state your points in a respectful way, and I will be happy to address them.

--thoughtsonftm

“I'm sorry that you've chosen to contribute to the hatred and judgment hurled at stealth individuals by the "trans community". I would hope that most people would have better things to do with their time and blog space than to attack me.”

It’s an acceptance thing….

Apparently that some mainstream folk are unwilling to accept GLBT folk but the very LGBT folk who demand that acceptance express their hatred at us, for being who we are.

What a shame..


Take care
Sue

Lets try that one more time...


It’s an acceptance thing….

Apparently some mainstream folk are unwilling to accept GLBT folk, but the very LGBT folk who demand that acceptance express their hatred at us, for being who we are.

What a shame..


Take care
Sue

Much Better

"I'm sorry that you've chosen to contribute to the hatred and judgment hurled at stealth individuals by the 'trans community'."

Hatred? I don't hate you, I pity you.

"I would hope that most people would have better things to do with their time and blog space than to attack me."

Attack you? How is that possible? YOU are stealth, so I couldn't possibly attack you. I'm attacking the whole idea of stealth.

Silence=death

"'Closet' is a term from the gay community that has very little relevance to my life. disclosure or non-disclosure of my medical history is an issue of privacy and confidentiality."

Semantics is what it is. Same concept, different name. Your DNA, how your bodied, isn't medical history.

"Personally, I think that the tendency to judge others for their own personal decisions and paths is a much more serious problem to "the trans community" than any perceived or actual lack of visibility or poor representation. it mirrors the way in which non-transsexual society judges all TS, TG, and GQ people- regardless of whether or not they are stealth."

Your neighbor smokes crack and leave his kid in 90 degree heat. You're telling me you don't make a judgment based on his "personal decision"? Oh yes, judgments are much more damaging than death. Maybe if you came out of your closet every so often you'd see that there are people dying because they are out.

"Your comment was deleted because it was a vehement personal attack. Feel free to re-state your points in a respectful way, and I will be happy to address them."

You may take it personal, because it's about you. But the comment wasn't directed on your person, but on what YOU DO. I'm not really concerned with posting to your website. Your comment here proves how out of touch you are with reality.

Stealth people have it worse than out transgender people. I think I can die now, I've heard everything.


Marti
The tone of your last post says it all.

My “Out friends would not make such comments.
They walk their talk and give the same level of acceptance they expect from others.

They are not the problem they are the solution to LGBT rights.

Stick a fork in me; I am done with this thread.

Take care,


Sue

Ed. note: This comment has been removed for a violation of the ToS. Play nice!

Thanks for joining the discussion at The Bilerico Project! Please be respectful of others. We reserve the right to delete a comment that is off-topic, abusive, uses excessive foul language, is exceptionally incoherent, includes a homophobic, racist, sexist or other slur or is soliciting and/or advertising.

"I've been shocked at the amount
of division and infighting that happens in this community...
...If the transcommunity was at least LOOSELY unified and had a way to talk to each other without one group trying to sand bag another, this might not have happened. A glaring deficit in our community is a transgender leadership round table that brings ALL the groups in the community together and works out strategy out of the glare of the public."

From a recent email sent by Marti. I believe this is called "speaking out of both sides of one's mouth."

"From a recent email sent by Marti. I believe this is called "speaking out of both sides of one's mouth."

That's because you're obsessed with this post and can't see distinction. Deep stealth transsexuals aren't a lobby and they aren't an activist group.

I'm talking about groups that do the work for passage of legislation, education of the public, and advocating for the rights of transgender people. I'm not talking about people that hide.

Marla R. Stevens Marla R. Stevens | October 18, 2007 8:40 PM

I encourage people on this thread to explore the difference between privacy and secrecy -- terms that mean quite different things and which are too often wrongly used interchangeably.

One of the best discussions of it is in Mohr's Outing and Other Controversies.

I'm going to fall on Marti's side of the divide here. It's a rather simple statement of political reality and not worth all this sturm und drang, imho.

This whole thread seems to break down into two very clear groups:

The "in your face, here, queer and" whatever the old line was the militants used.

Then there is the compassionate, inclusive, compromising side willing to listen, expanding their hearts and minds group.

I'm with the later.

I'm a human being, someone a step further along the evolutionary ladder than clubbing people over the head for fun, profit, or because they don't agree with me.

In and Out? Great movie, Kevin Klein is amazing and funny as well as really good to look at. So is Tom Seleck, oh so yummy, both of them. Passing, not passing? It's what I do on the highway when I get tired of reading the same bumper sticker that's been there the last hundred miles, someone wants to pass me? I pull over and let them. Stealth? I know what that is, it's when I sneak up on one of my nieces or nephews, wrap my arms around them, give them kisses and hugs until they squeal with laughter and delight. Closets are where I pile up the stuff I'm not using until I can safely recycle it into something I can and wish to use. I'm old enough to know better, young enough not to care!

Part of the problem, part of the solution? I work day to day on leaving the world better and cleaner than I found it. Treating people with respect and dignity that knows no limitations with regards to anything. God is in the heart, not in body parts! Some loves same, some loves different... Point is if people spent less time slapping labels or naming every dam thing in the world and instead gave people hugs, this whole topic would be moot.

But then the aggressive, in your face see it my way or the highway folks would all have strokes. I fancy a world where those people ARE the problem. You do to people around you, what you most want to avoid having done to you and then bitch about it unmercifully when you are called on it.

Matthew 7:1-8. Read it, learn it, live it. Be the ball, don't just throw other balls around. Practice what you preach, but love thy neighbor, do unto others...

These and other cliches will be available in our gift shop on the way out.

I find myself agreeing with Sue, Anne and others here, and seeing a side of others I don't understand and don't really like very much. But that's just my opinion, and we all know opinions are like arses, we all have one, and they all smell different accordingly to persons of the quadrupedal variety who like to sniff such things. Who or what I am? I'm a person of light, a child of a loving, peaceful God and Goddess. I am a country song played backwards, and an opera of love, light, humanity and freedom.

I expect that probably means Marti and others will be along shortly to tie me to a cross, soak me in napalm, and light me on fire. I will be smiling as Marti does this just to piss Marti off because I can and I wish to. As my flesh yields to the flames of Marti's view of the universe all that will be heard is my laughter at the utter immutability of limitless time/space. I am that part of existence that eschews labels, boxes, territorial skirmishes, wars, oppression, weapons of offense and manic Mondays.

Who am I? A spiritual being passing (badly) as a human life. I pity exactly no one, life is too short and I have more important things to do. I judge no one, because it's not my job, and I'm not qualified to do do so. As I understand things, NO ONE other than God or Goddess is qualified to do so either, last I checked, Marti is neither. Which means that regardless of who, what, where or why, everything here is JUST Marti's opinion and NOTHING more. Doesn't have to make a cup of sense, and there's no reason for anyone to die in the face. Marti's allowed to do whatever Marti wants, because knowing it is only Marti's opinion means I don't have to do anything with it. I don't have to listen to it, pay it any mind, or take it to heart despite what Marti thinks. Why? Because it is an opinion.

Someone once said it is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and convince everyone. Me, I'm liquid, shifting shape, size, color, texture, gender and any other label someone wants to try and slap on me because my feedom is important to me.

Burn the land, boil the seas, but you can't take my sky from me!


One more thought, Dr. Becky Allison, a successful post op Cardiac surgeon is out and proud. She's not however a posturing, judgmental, ego maniac with an axe to grind. She doesn't attack anyone who doesn't see her viewpoint or agree with it, she's got more important things to do.

Dr. Marci Bowers, a Biber girl herself, has taken over Dr. Biber's practice and performs hundred's of surgical liberations every year. She's honed and refined the process to a point that has surgeons from around the world studying with her. She's made a point of being public about her history, and she doesn't go attacking other people about what they do or don't do about gender affirmation surgery or anything else.

Calpernia Addams, Andria James, Annah Moore, Donna Rose, Jenny Boylan, Christine Betty, Leslie Townsend, Helen Boyd and her husband Betty and so many other amazing women are active in one way or another, and THEY don't verbally assault others or box people into who is, or who isn't.

My sister, who had severe complications bringing my niece into the world has lost the ability to produce enough (or any) estrogen to have her body function. Following your arguments, SHE should come out of the closet and be a trans activist? There are millions of women in the US for one reason or another are on estrogen, that means they should come out as trans as well?

Who am I? Well, I covered that earlier...

One more thought, Dr. Becky Allison, a successful post op Cardiac surgeon is out and proud. She's not however a posturing, judgmental, ego maniac with an axe to grind. She doesn't attack anyone who doesn't see her viewpoint or agree with it, she's got more important things to do.

I have an axe to grind? Your point is? My point in all of this is that those who hide, have no right to dictate anything the transgender community does.

Every person you mentioned is OUT. They live their lives in the open. They will move transgender rights forward. Clarisa Closet-Transsexual won't.

Your example of your sister, doesn't even begin to make ANY sense. I didn't say that ANYONE on estrogen has to come out transgender.

See this is the problem, you make a sweeping judgmental about people you do not know, and demand they do things YOUR WAY. You don't have that right, and cannot say that because it isn't your life. Get over it, and yourself. Live and let live Marti.

As for the example of my sister, do you even read what you write? You asserted anyone on estrogen had to be "out and proud" so that means my sister as well.

Tilting at windmills Marti, tilting at windmills...

As to every person I mentioned being out, well DUH! I mentioned them as examples of women who are out and not being obnoxious, judgmental, aggressive pains. So what is it you are so angry about about Marti? Your anger shows in what and how you say things, and the aggression you direct at people who don't see things the way you want them.

To your credit, your response so far has been far less hostile and argumentative than I'd expected to my posts so far. Shows promise.

See this is the problem, you make a sweeping judgmental about people you do not know, and demand they do things YOUR WAY. You don't have that right, and cannot say that because it isn't your life. Get over it, and yourself. Live and let live Marti.

I do have that right... If you don't like it, then stand up and be heard. Otherwise, you don't have a leg to stand on. You want to live in a closet? That's your choice. But don't bitch that you're not being represented properly.

"As for the example of my sister, do you even read what you write? You asserted anyone on estrogen had to be "out and proud" so that means my sister as well."

Was your sister born with a penis? If not, I don't think your example holds ANY water. It's an analogy that doesn't work.

Recently, I read a blog post about an FTM complaining about being judged by other transgender people about living "stealth." For those who don't know what stealth means, it's the equivalent of "living in the closet."

Okay, I'm sorry, but this is clearly tilting at windmills here, since FTM transitions are totally different than MTF journeys. You have no right to judge someone else, especially if you no way to understand his journey.

To those of you who feel the need to live secretly, I say this; if you wish to live your life in a closet that is your choice. But don't be surprised when I judge you for this.

Again, read Matthew 7. Who the heck are you to decide to judge anyone else? In Judaism the concept is walking a mile in someone else's shoes before you judge them. Only in radical Islam is it okay to cut someone's head off because disagree with them. "Judge not lest ye be judged!"

For as long as folks with passing privilege hide in their closets, there will be a stigma attached to transgender people because they will be defined by those that don't or aren't trying to pass. By being stealth, you're shaming yourself and those who are like you. If you want to do that, be my guest.

There is a stigma because of militant, judgmental people who WANT what they want and damn the rest! No flexibility, no compassion and tolerance, the whole in your face demands. So called "normal" people need to know that GLBT people are real live people with feelings and lives. Not self appointed, self important, judgmental militants who are all about noise and making people see things their way.

I don't think you bad, immoral, or unethical for living a "stealth" existence. I would say you're a coward and delusional, if you think that you can live stealth in today's world. There's always a path back to your birth gender, so you're about as stealth as Valerie Plame.

See you say one thing here, but obviously mean another. Your attitude and behavior here speaks volumes. Calling someone a coward and delusional is, in many ways worse than saying they are bad, immoral or unethical. Better to be a live coward than a dead hero.

There is no integrity in hiding. There is no integrity in shame. You don't like that judgment? Tough shit. Those of us that choose to be out by choice get judged daily. But we do so because we know that the people that know and love us will have hearts and minds changed because of us. Because of them knowing us. If you aren't moving us forward, you're setting us back. You don't like that? Go hide in your closet.

There's no integrity in making rules for other people without their knowledge or consent and expecting them to live by them or suffer the consequences. Your attitude is no different than J. Micheal Bailey and his ilk, and frankly you are everything that is wrong with so many so called activists of different causes. You argue that "If you aren't moving us forward you are setting us back."

Not ONE of the women I've mentioned in my previous post has ever said anything nearly as hideously one sided or obnoxious, nor are they every likely to either, because they don't stoop to aggressive, hostile, offensive rhetoric.

YOU represent the attitudes that are setting back the overall GLBT community by showing all of us as hostiwhile and bewigerwent. If you don't know what that means see the "West Wing" episode "Celestial Navigation" for reference. Lighten up Marti, you make everyone look bad. Work with people instead of shouting at the rain because you don't understand it and can't sell it.

My suggestion is to talk to your endo, since it seems like you're suffering from Testosterone poisoning. The aggressive, judgmental hostile posturing is representative of significantly masculine thinking. Are you getting enough estrogen? Or are you preop and preHRT? If so, then I'd suggest you shut the hell up because if you're pre everything and in no position to judge anyone. So, where are you on your journey eh? 128? Not out at all in real life? What's the deal eh?

Okay, I'm sorry, but this is clearly tilting at windmills here, since FTM transitions are totally different than MTF journeys. You have no right to judge someone else, especially if you no way to understand his journey.

The process has nothing to do with the act of being stealth.

Again, read Matthew 7. Who the heck are you to decide to judge anyone else? In Judaism the concept is walking a mile in someone else's shoes before you judge them. Only in radical Islam is it okay to cut someone's head off because disagree with them. "Judge not lest ye be judged!"

We make judgments every day about people. If you say you don't, you're a liar. Quoting fiction doesn't help your case.

There is a stigma because of militant, judgmental people who WANT what they want and damn the rest! No flexibility, no compassion and tolerance, the whole in your face demands. So called "normal" people need to know that GLBT people are real live people with feelings and lives. Not self appointed, self important, judgmental militants who are all about noise and making people see things their way.

I never said you couldn't be stealth. I've never said that you shouldn't be allowed to. "Normal people" won't know crap about you as a transgender person if you live in a closet.

There's no integrity in making rules for other people without their knowledge or consent and expecting them to live by them or suffer the consequences.

So you quote the Bible, which is a Christian rule book, then tell me I mustn't make rules? Please be consistent.

J. Micheal Bailey and his ilk, and frankly you are everything that is wrong with so many so called activists of different causes. You argue that "If you aren't moving us forward you are setting us back

Maybe you could have a protest about it in your closet.

YOU represent the attitudes that are setting back the overall GLBT community by showing all of us as hostiwhile and bewigerwent. If you don't know what that means see the "West Wing" episode "Celestial Navigation" for reference. Lighten up Marti, you make everyone look bad. Work with people instead of shouting at the rain because you don't understand it and can't sell it.

Wisdom from a television. That's fresh. Will you quote from the Muppet Show next? Maybe throw in some witty treatise based on an episode of The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air? While your taping old episodes of Blossom, I'm actually working with people to move us forward. Till I see you advocating next to me, your words will fall from my eyes as quickly as that rain falls.

My suggestion is to talk to your endo, since it seems like you're suffering from Testosterone poisoning. The aggressive, judgmental hostile posturing is representative of significantly masculine thinking. Are you getting enough estrogen? Or are you preop and preHRT? If so, then I'd suggest you shut the hell up because if you're pre everything and in no position to judge anyone. So, where are you on your journey eh? 128? Not out at all in real life? What's the deal eh?

Oh so it's testosterone that makes men pricks? Should I be submissive and meek? Is that your idea of what a woman is? Should I retreat to the closet to bake cookies and serve my husband? Thanks for your misogynistic advice. When I want to be June Cleaver, I'll look you up.

Are you going for longest comment thread on Bilerico, Marti?

I think you've already won, with 70 now.

LOL, the sky's the limit! :) As long as you have this in the project highlights, it's gonna get hit on. It's a strong position I've taken, and people really seem to hate it. But I believe that tolerance won't come with people that hide. Gays and lesbians have gained acceptance by showing their humanity to others, not hiding.

SQ sed:

I expect that probably means Marti and others will be along shortly to tie me to a cross, soak me in napalm, and light me on fire. I will be smiling as Marti does this just to piss Marti off because I can and I wish to. As my flesh yields to the flames of Marti's view of the universe all that will be heard is my laughter at the utter immutability of limitless time/space. I am that part of existence that eschews labels, boxes, territorial skirmishes, wars, oppression, weapons of offense and manic Mondays.

Jeez, you're psycho.

I can't believe I just read that thread. Maybe I should just go for a walk.

Haha, the timestamp makes it seem like I'm up late when in fact I'm up early.

Bil does the highlights. I've thought it'd be cool to have it sort of "rescue" good posts from the previous week, but that's kind of a different thing.

But I notice that my Garrison Keillor post got knocked off, and nothing else I've done has replaced it. What gives, Bil?

(I know he'll read this comment because his name will be in that little intro that appears in the back-end....)

One last thought, you said;

I do have that right... If you don't like it, then stand up and be heard. Otherwise, you don't have a leg to stand on. You want to live in a closet? That's your choice. But don't bitch that you're not being represented properly.

I didn't vote for you, and regardless of my story, my history, my life I would NEVER want a militant of any kind representing me. You can only speak for yourself, no one else unless they allow you to speak for them. I'm not bitching about what and how other people are doing things, it's you and the whole "Men in dresses" group that want to CONTROL things and make rules and determine who is and who ain't. I don't live in the closet, there's no point, but I have a life to live and I contribute when and where I can without being a screaming pain in the arse that people hate. Only thing, only person I'm bitching about is YOU bitching about people you don't know and are NOT empowered to represent.

Just admit you've stuck your foot in your mouth and that maybe you don't know everything. Admit you are not permitted to speak for other people who don't want you to speak for them. Admit you're not God and thus not allowed to judge people. Then get on with life and good work, be a shining example of a beautiful human being who is proud of what you've accomplished. Get off the soapbox, and find another TV channel instead of the all Trans all the time.

Women and Men don't go into stealth because they want to hide, but because there is only so much they can do while they are living life. Setting you back? The he you say. You're making more noise, and drawing more negative attention to you than good you can do. I'm a post everything woman, living my life open, honest and free, and frankly no one gives a crap about my past. It's the past, get over it, learn and grow from it, and move on with life. I kept all my friends, family and have made new ones who never knew the old me. Most people these days who find out (because I tell them) don't even believe me. I "pass" and it's not really what my life is about. I worked to get out of a closet and live a free life, and not be constrained by other peoples attitudes and demands, now I have to listen to you? Again, who died and made you God? Whoever they are, they lied to you!

I help women who are just starting out, I do what I can within time and resources available, I stand and am counted when it's important. I love what Dr. Becky has said and written about being out and proud and stand by her and women, sisters in the battle against narrow minded male stereotypes and bigotry when and where I can.

YOU on the other hand? I wish you'd just shut the he up and stuff yourself back in the closet or something. I don't want hostile, obnoxious, argumentative beasts representing me. So I'll stand by my thought, why don't you just shut the he up?

My grand mother used to say if you don't have anything nice to say about other people, don't say it. Get over yourself Marti. Leave the nice guy alone, and allow him to speak FOR himself about himself. You are NOT a democracy of one, ain't no such thing. I've survived something I'd wish on no one, out, proud, and free, and you Marti, embarrass me. So what you're saying is if I'm not on the all trans all the time channel in life I'm holding you back? Grow up! I'm not Trans to start with, I'm intersexed, and even then I have more important battles to worry about. Life isn't, and shouldn't be, all gender all the time.

You wanted or needed to make changes in your life? Great, I'm happy for you. It doesn't give you a license to decide who is and isn't, so get over it and move on.

So far, It's just been brought to my attention you do this kind of stuff for a living, starting arguments and being some kind of Trans Rush Ligbau (sp?) and frankly I think you should just get over it and get a real job.

Abernathy? We named the dog Abernathy... Which I remembered as a friend of mine was telling me about MsMartipants and other such endevors of yours. So Sue, Anne and the rest of the beautiful intelligent people out there, just ignore Marti because Marti does this kind of stuff on purpose.

I didn't vote for you, and regardless of my story, my history, my life I would NEVER want a militant of any kind representing me. You can only speak for yourself, no one else unless they allow you to speak for them.

Then stand up and advocate for yourself....

I'm not bitching about what and how other people are doing things, it's you and the whole "Men in dresses" group that want to CONTROL things and make rules and determine who is and who ain't.

Men in dresses? Is that an offshoot of the blue man group? It's "not men in dresses." It's "chocks with cocks" or "gicks with dicks" or whatever that one was... maybe challuses with phalluses? Btw, does this Men In Dresses Group share office space with the Homosexual Agenda Foundation?

I don't live in the closet, there's no point, but I have a life to live and I contribute when and where I can without being a screaming pain in the arse that people hate. Only thing, only person I'm bitching about is YOU bitching about people you don't know and are NOT empowered to represent.

They love me, they really, really love me!

Just admit you've stuck your foot in your mouth and that maybe you don't know everything. Admit you are not permitted to speak for other people who don't want you to speak for them.

I've never said I speak for everyone. But I do advocate for more than just myself. I advocate for tolerance. I advocate for you to be ashamed of yourself.

Admit you're not God and thus not allowed to judge people. Then get on with life and good work, be a shining example of a beautiful human being who is proud of what you've accomplished. Get off the soapbox, and find another TV channel instead of the all Trans all the time.

I AM NOT THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER!

I'm a post everything woman, living my life open, honest and free, and frankly no one gives a crap about my past. It's the past, get over it, learn and grow from it, and move on with life. I kept all my friends, family and have made new ones who never knew the old me. Most people these days who find out (because I tell them) don't even believe me. I "pass" and it's not really what my life is about. I worked to get out of a closet and live a free life, and not be constrained by other peoples attitudes and demands, now I have to listen to you? Again, who died and made you God? Whoever they are, they lied to you!

SHE'S READY FOR HER CLOSEUP MR DeMILLE!

I help women who are just starting out, I do what I can within time and resources available, I stand and am counted when it's important. I love what Dr. Becky has said and written about being out and proud and stand by her and women, sisters in the battle against narrow minded male stereotypes and bigotry when and where I can.

That's great. Your point is?

YOU on the other hand? I wish you'd just shut the he up and stuff yourself back in the closet or something. I don't want hostile, obnoxious, argumentative beasts representing me. So I'll stand by my thought, why don't you just shut the he up?

Because that's what "Men in Dresses" do, doncha know?

"I'm not Trans to start with, I'm intersexed, and even then I have more important battles to worry about. Life isn't, and shouldn't be, all gender all the time."

So why are you posting here? I never claimed life was about gender all the time.

So far, It's just been brought to my attention you do this kind of stuff for a living, starting arguments and being some kind of Trans Rush Ligbau (sp?) and frankly I think you should just get over it and get a real job.

It's Limbaugh. Heh. I'll put that up on my mantel, along with being called a "Howard Stern shock jock."

I have a real job. Blogging is my passion.

Abernathy? We named the dog Abernathy... Which I remembered as a friend of mine was telling me about MsMartipants and other such endevors of yours. So Sue, Anne and the rest of the beautiful intelligent people out there, just ignore Marti because Marti does this kind of stuff on purpose.

Wow, you have a dog named after a river in Scotland? How eclectic. I'm not one of the beautiful people?

*faints*

Alex SAID:

SQ sed:

sed? You simply MUST be joking. sed? What is that?
Spell checking: Free with Firefox
Not being to lazy to write the whole word: Priceless!

Jeez, you're psycho.

Right back atcha! You and the other narrow minded, hate mongering, torch carrying folks like "The High and Mighty Martiness"

I can't believe I just read that thread. Maybe I should just go for a walk.

Walks are good, forcing me to use small words and narrow minded concepts to see you acknowledge that I have as much right to admit that [Marti's] words make my blood boil, [Marti] who's standing center stage and advocating, at the top of [Marti's] lungs, that which [I] would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of mine, is not.

Haha, the timestamp makes it seem like I'm up late when in fact I'm up early.

Yeah, timestamps are funny that way. But then again the entire internet concept is, after a fashion salvation from the so called free press, that is anything but. Still going to run into psychos of all shapes sizes colors and so forth who have a right to speak our minds and advocate for whatever we want. Especially if we find something glaringly wrong with attitudes and concepts espoused by Marti.

I notice Marti is getting lots of play for narrow minded hate mongering, but the guy Marti is bashing only speaks sense. Oh, now I get it, Marti is a modern day Radical Lesbian Feminist Militant who feels entitled to spread around the suffering. So Alex, is this you saying you are one of Marti's jack booted thugs?

Yup, I'm a psycho. Then again I'm not the Invisible Pink Unicorn of perfection who created the universe and blesses us with her perfection and ultimate truth. Marti on the other hand, well Marti's a psycho too, so crazy is as crazy does.

No worries, SQ, I meant "psycho" in the most value-neutral, descriptive way possible. I mean, you were talking in graphic detail about Marti killing you just because you didn't agree with her.

But you're in good company, about half the commenters on this site are pretty psychotic, lol.

Wait, I'm one of "Marti's jack booted thugs"? No one's ever said anything so nice to me! *Tears up* I know I could accomplish anything if I put my mind to it! Now to try to become one of the "Invisible Pink Unicorn of perfection"'s jack-booted thugs!

Right back atcha! You and the other narrow minded, hate mongering, torch carrying folks like "The High and Mighty Martiness"

Welcome to the club, Alex. I should probably knight you now. :p

I notice Marti is getting lots of play for narrow minded hate mongering, but the guy Marti is bashing only speaks sense. Oh, now I get it, Marti is a modern day Radical Lesbian Feminist Militant who feels entitled to spread around the suffering. So Alex, is this you saying you are one of Marti's jack booted thugs?

Yes, I command an ARMY OF THEM! MARCH, MY PRETTIES!

Yup, I'm a psycho. Then again I'm not the Invisible Pink Unicorn of perfection who created the universe and blesses us with her perfection and ultimate truth. Marti on the other hand, well Marti's a psycho too, so crazy is as crazy does.

That's pretty funny, coming from you. You've called me everything but a nappy headed hoe, yet I'm the unruly psycho? Heh, now that's spin. Do you work for the Bush Administration?

No worries, SQ, I meant "psycho" in the most value-neutral, descriptive way possible. I mean, you were talking in graphic detail about Marti killing you just because you didn't agree with her.

Well part of that is I have a really vivid imagination, and I'm a writer. The other part of it is I have PTSD, and that tends to make things a bit more vivid too. Stuff I'm working on, you know that whole dealing with life thing that "The High and Mighty Martiness" doesn't understand.

Plus, being a witch, and familiar with some of humanities less eloquent expressions of different opinions. Then the fallout from those periods of time, and the way people behaved, it's not really such a reach. Back aways they used to burn witches, well at least suspected witches, then of course there were the crusades.

So stranger things have happened.


But you're in good company, about half the commenters on this site are pretty psychotic, lol.

Hum, something about bridges and what everyone else comes to mind. Then again, misery loves company eh? Lemmings to the sea and all that...

Seriously though, thanks for the vote of confidence... I guess I'd rather be one of a number of psychos than the only one, you know?

Plea for tolerance and civility

First,
though it is of course important to be "out and proud"(if one can or WANTS to be,)
that decision is TOTALLY up to the individual.

To say anything differant is to be like the Right wing on abortion or gay rights.
(BY not minding one's OWN business)


AND,funny how gay men seem comfortable weighing
in here, when TG people weighing in on THEIR
personal issues would be looked DOWN upon,
no doubt.("keep your laws off our bodies"etc.)

The best argument for a pro-choice world(for instance) is that women MUST be able to control their own bodies and medical choices, as MEN would DEMAND.
so this PARTLY seems like a mind your own business situation, along those same lines...


Marti is not advocating changing laws obviously, but IS shaming people who have come through
a difficult and painful process.That strikes me as wrong.

There IS a way to have this discussion without shaming tactics.
The shaming smacks of the christian right.why not have the discussion without it?

in this time, at present, we are fighting between GLB and T-
seems like the T needs to not start to self destruct too.
Between Bush, ENDA, the Right, we need SOLIDERITY, not shame and division.

There are Genderqueer, Trans, Transsexual, all sorts of identities, all of whom seem to define
themselves DIFFERANTLY.is that not what it's about?

obviously some T people see themselves as Male or Female,
others as trans, others as genderqueer,etc. can't we respect each other?
this post reminds me of:

"what have i got in common with some STRAIGHT DRESS WEARING guy who wants to cut off his PENIS? i'm GAY. not TG.
how did THEY get into OUR group"
(as i have been reading at times on some gay blogs fairly recently.)
how INCREDIBLY SAD!

Don't we all have enough pain between the Right wingers and the parts of the GLB who don't
"get" the T?
i am a glbt activist myself and this discussion could be SO interesting without all of the
SHAMING tactics used by the original poster.

Outing is so many shades of grey...
outing as GAY or LESBIAN is NOT the same
as outing as TG.
the outing of a gay person is as a gay PERSON.
the outing of a tg person is as SOMEBODY DIFFERANT.
some one ELSE.
another person.
another gender.
And that's totally differant.

And far more complicated in people's MINDS.
Can we not have this discussion with TOLERANCE not shaming and insensitivity?
otherwise, WE become "THEM".


Ps:Marti, can we please not divide the community any further?
and don't tell me they are "in stealth/ closet ANYWAY" that's NOT the point.
Civility and respect COULD have framed this discussion and could in future.
Otherwise we ALL go down in flames.
(for the record, I am OUT and an activist),
so i'm arguing a moral issue not a personal one.
We CAN and should talk about ANYTHING if we discuss it WITHOUT shame.

Thanks,
Javier

I feel that as one of Marti's jack-booted thugs I should respond to Javier, but that's a lot of crazy in that one comment.

Although I don't really think that any decision is made completely by any individual and that hopefully the gay rights movement or feminist movement is not just about doing whatever one wants, but about coming together a living more respectfully of everyone's dignity. I mean, we aren't libertarians.

OK, that's 81, Marti. And I included some substance because I don't want to cheat!

First, though it is of course important to be "out and proud"(if one can or WANTS to be,)
that decision is TOTALLY up to the individual.

To say anything differant is to be like the Right wing on abortion or gay rights.
(BY not minding one's OWN business)

Um, Hello Larry Craig? The right wing? They don't force people out of the closet, they stuff them in the closet. I've never said that anyone has to be "out and proud". That is a personal decision. But being stealth is different from simply being discreet.

The best argument for a pro-choice world (for instance) is that women MUST be able to control their own bodies and medical choices, as MEN would DEMAND.so this PARTLY seems like a mind your own business situation, along those same lines..

.

No one is saying you shouldn't be able to control your own body.

Marti is not advocating changing laws obviously, but IS shaming people who have come through a difficult and painful process.That strikes me as wrong.

Shaming? I've said repeatedly in this thread that I understand that some people have to not reveal their trans status for safety's sake.. or for other reasons.

There IS a way to have this discussion without shaming tactics.The shaming smacks of the christian right.why not have the discussion without it?

I''ll admit I'm angry at people who are stealth. I'm angry because I take their heap of educating others. I take their heap of scorn. I'm sick of hearing "I'm just a normal girl", as if being a transgender/transsexual woman isn't "normal."

in this time, at present, we are fighting between GLB and T- seems like the T needs to not start to self destruct too. Between Bush, ENDA, the Right, we need SOLIDERITY, not shame and division.

Ever hear of United ENDA? The GLBT community is more unified than it's ever been. This isn't being self destructive, it's calling out the Larry Craigs' of the transgender world. As shown in the Larry Craig case (and many others), being deceptive only harms other people in the same group.

There are Genderqueer, Trans, Transsexual, all sorts of identities, all of whom seem to define themselves DIFFERANTLY.is that not what it's about?

I don't think anyone has said that one can't adopt different identities.

obviously some T people see themselves as Male or Female, others as trans, others as genderqueer,etc. can't we respect each other? this post reminds me of:"what have i got in common with some STRAIGHT DRESS WEARING guy who wants to cut off his PENIS? i'm GAY. not TG. how did THEY get into OUR group" (as i have been reading at times on some gay blogs fairly recently.) how INCREDIBLY SAD!

How you tie that in with this, I'm not sure. But that opinion is held by a minority.

Don't we all have enough pain between the Right wingers and the parts of the GLB who don't "get" the T?

So that we lie about who we are? You can do that or support that if you wish, but I will not.

i am a glbt activist myself and this discussion could be SO interesting without all of the SHAMING tactics used by the original poster.

If lying and deceit are something you think people should be proud of, go you. I do not.

Outing is so many shades of grey...
outing as GAY or LESBIAN is NOT the same
as outing as TG.
the outing of a gay person is as a gay PERSON.
the outing of a tg person is as SOMEBODY DIFFERANT.
some one ELSE.
another person.
another gender.
And that's totally differant.

Are you saying that transgender people aren't people? I'm not sure what your point is there.

And far more complicated in people's MINDS. Can we not have this discussion with TOLERANCE not shaming and insensitivity? otherwise, WE become "THEM".

But we don't "become them" when we act as Larry "I'm NOT GAY AND I NEVER HAVE BEEN GAY" Craig did?

Ps:Marti, can we please not divide the community any further? and don't tell me they are "in stealth/ closet ANYWAY" that's NOT the point.
Civility and respect COULD have framed this discussion and could in future. Otherwise we ALL go down in flames. (for the record, I am OUT and an activist), so i'm arguing a moral issue not a personal one. We CAN and should talk about ANYTHING if we discuss it WITHOUT shame.

In all due respect, fuck that. This isn't an issue I'm going to tiptoe around. I'm not ashamed of who and what I am. I'm not going to enable someone to be deceitful. Their deception and self hatred makes my job as an activist harder, and my life more stressful.

In all due respect, fuck that. This isn't an issue I'm going to tiptoe around. I'm not ashamed of who and what I am. I'm not going to enable someone to be deceitful. Their deception and self hatred makes my job as an activist harder, and my life more stressful.

Well since it's obvious your mind is so closeted as to be rendered useless, I'll stick with my first thought which is: "Shut the hell up!"

Nothing you have said really smacks of any respect Marti.

I'm so out, I had to go looking for people to come out to, all of whom had the same reaction. "Yeah? Cool! I wish I could have the courage and freedom to take control of my life."

Not surprisingly I agree with Javier here. The fact that Alex thinks she's crazy, just supports my thinking! Long thread, well disable "The High and Mighty Martiness" from smarmy self important preachiness that shows how little tolerance Marti has for any opinion but Marti's own.

Well since it's obvious your mind is so closeted as to be rendered useless, I'll stick with my first thought which is: "Shut the hell up!"

Good luck with that.

I'm so out, I had to go looking for people to come out to, all of whom had the same reaction. "Yeah? Cool! I wish I could have the courage and freedom to take control of my life."

I thought you were intersex?

Not surprisingly I agree with Javier here. The fact that Alex thinks she's crazy, just supports my thinking! Long thread, well disable "The High and Mighty Martiness" from smarmy self important preachiness that shows how little tolerance Marti has for any opinion but Marti's own.

I'm shocked. Birds of a feather, and all.

I thought you were intersex?

Matter of fact, I am, but that and 3 bucks will get me on a subway. More importantly most human beings don't know or care about the difference.

So the question I have for you then is what are people supposed to be doing according to your twisted and delusional view of the universe? Have "I'm Intersexed" tattoed on our heads? Or "I'm Trans" so that there can be no question?

So I guess what you're saying is be shamed by you, or shamed by the rest of the world in the case of someone who has no reason to be shamed by anyone.

You're a bully Marti, it's than simple, and through out history people like you have made life miserable for people who have no reason to know you're alive otherwise. I know your type Marti, you and Rommel, or Ghering, or Khan, or whomever...

I''ll admit I'm angry at people who are stealth. I'm angry because I take their heap of educating others. I take their heap of scorn. I'm sick of hearing "I'm just a normal girl", as if being a transgender/transsexual woman isn't "normal."

Ah, so there it is, the final nasty, ugly truth. So suck it up, grow up and get on with life.

You're angry, okay I get that. Just get don't target the people who are most likely to understand and relate to your pain and further divide the community while you are at it. You're sick of hearing things that make you jealous? Wow, I simply cannot imagine how much it sucks to be you. As to being a transgender/transsexual not being normal, well if you had more than a couple of brain cells to rub together you'd realize that both terms are MADE UP by the "haves" to put down the "have nots" as they consider anyone who isn't "normal" according to them.

Really, honestly, you look even more pathetic and embarrassing now, and if I didn't have more important things to do with my time or energy, I might find it in my heart to pity you. So yeah, you're a freak in heels, a repulsive, green skinned, fat ugly monster of twisted, tortured and deformed humanity.

Feel better?

Now that you were so kind as to boil it all down and accidentally let slip what's really going on, you have the nerve to expect to be taken seriously by anyone other than you cadre of thugs? You're being played Marti. No one takes you seriously, your being encouraged to act out and make a boob of yourself because:

Hey, look at the pathetic tranny!!! This ones so stupid it even bites it's own kind... HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

You embarrass yourself, and the real men and women who deal with life by being some kind of side show freak on purpose. You are the Janice Raymonds, Anne Lawrences and Graying old men in lab coats who are about as utterly clueless about gender as one can get and still be alive.

Everytime you open your mouth you set everyone back, all by yourself. If all the world sees are the side show freaks, then that is what they are going to focus on, and how they will judge everyone else. It is bottom feeding, media hogging, judgmental loud mouths who wind up on Springer. Your kind of people.

TS/TG isn't an identity or a rallying cry. It's imprinting on the narrow minded bigotry of morons who make up these terms. It's then getting suckers like you to wrap yourself in the armor of your own stupidity and scream to high heaven that YOU ARE the freakish thing.

Donna Rose, Lynn Conway, Leslie Townsend, and a list of positive, empowered women out there educating ignorant boobs like you are the ONLY reason there's any kind of positive role models, OR success stories in the world. They don't take out their anger on or about people they don't know because they've never met them.

You don't get it, nor do I imagine you ever will. So I'm done with you. You're a pathetic, self loathing, self entitled, self important, little bully who picks on people you don't even know because you're mind is so filled with anger and hate, you have to take it out on someone. You've picked people in stealth because it's safe, because they aren't going to come out and say anything to show you for the fool you are.

Me, I'm tired of having a battle of whits with an unarmed opponent who enjoys kicking puppies and strangling cats when there are no people around you think you can beat up on. I'm so done with this thread, with you, and the entire pathetic concept.

Yeah Alex, I'm a psycho, but I'm in good company with the other crazies here. I have however figured out that you folks are the GLBT equivalent of "Focus on the Family" and that's just sad. You are setting HUMANITY back by encouraging people like Marti.

So Marti, go see a therapist or psychiatrist or both about your anger issues and get some help rather than littering the internet with bigotry.

I'll spend my time dealing and paying attention to decent, intelligent, beautiful women out there who are doing good things for the community. I'll just remember to ignore you from now on. So yeah, you're angry. You're an angry bully.

Moving on...

Matter of fact, I am, but that and 3 bucks will get me on a subway. More importantly most human beings don't know or care about the difference.

Well it does when you post in this thread. I don't think I was speaking to intersexed folks.

So I guess what you're saying is be shamed by you, or shamed by the rest of the world in the case of someone who has no reason to be shamed by anyone.

There's nothing shameful in being trans. I know that's a hard concept for you to grasp... but maybe the 15th time I say it, it will get through to you.

You're a bully Marti, it's than simple, and through out history people like you have made life miserable for people who have no reason to know you're alive otherwise. I know your type Marti, you and Rommel, or Ghering, or Khan, or whomever...

You get funnier with each post. I'm like Shaka Khan! You told me to shut the hell up, and I'm the bully? You're priceless.

Ah, so there it is, the final nasty, ugly truth. So suck it up, grow up and get on with life.

Wow, you're quick. I think I said that in the post. But, well, I know it takes a while to sink in.

You're angry, okay I get that. Just get don't target the people who are most likely to understand and relate to your pain and further divide the community while you are at it. You're sick of hearing things that make you jealous? Wow, I simply cannot imagine how much it sucks to be you. As to being a transgender/transsexual not being normal, well if you had more than a couple of brain cells to rub together you'd realize that both terms are MADE UP by the "haves" to put down the "have nots" as they consider anyone who isn't "normal" according to them.

It's a vast TRANNY CONSPIRACY! I THINK IT WAS JOHN BIRCH! A TRANNY AND JOHN BIRCH WERE IN BUILDING SEVEN!

Really, honestly, you look even more pathetic and embarrassing now, and if I didn't have more important things to do with my time or energy, I might find it in my heart to pity you. So yeah, you're a freak in heels, a repulsive, green skinned, fat ugly monster of twisted, tortured and deformed humanity.

Oh, please... could you? Please take pity on me, oh great one.

Feel better?

God, yes... this is better than Seinfeld!

Now that you were so kind as to boil it all down and accidentally let slip what's really going on, you have the nerve to expect to be taken seriously by anyone other than you cadre of thugs? You're being played Marti. No one takes you seriously, your being encouraged to act out and make a boob of yourself because:

Oh yes, everyone that's subscribed to this post is just running to your defense. Gosh, please take me serious, oh wondrous intersex person.

You embarrass yourself, and the real men and women who deal with life by being some kind of side show freak on purpose. You are the Janice Raymonds, Anne Lawrences and Graying old men in lab coats who are about as utterly clueless about gender as one can get and still be alive.

Wow, you're almost as good as Matlock.

Everytime you open your mouth you set everyone back, all by yourself. If all the world sees are the side show freaks, then that is what they are going to focus on, and how they will judge everyone else. It is bottom feeding, media hogging, judgmental loud mouths who wind up on Springer. Your kind of people.

I'm the kind of people that goes and lobbies Congress for people like you...

the kind that is big behind a computer, but weak in the halls of Congress. When you advocate next to me, maybe I'll give two cents what you say here. In the meantime, keep typing! We can make it to 100 together!

TS/TG isn't an identity or a rallying cry. It's imprinting on the narrow minded bigotry of morons who make up these terms. It's then getting suckers like you to wrap yourself in the armor of your own stupidity and scream to high heaven that YOU ARE the freakish thing.

Everyone's the dumb ass but you, eh? Those people with all that science stuff are the dummies.

Donna Rose, Lynn Conway, Leslie Townsend, and a list of positive, empowered women out there educating ignorant boobs like you are the ONLY reason there's any kind of positive role models, OR success stories in the world. They don't take out their anger on or about people they don't know because they've never met them.

And you're just the epitome of that positive, empowered woman, eh? Need a mirror, pot?

You don't get it, nor do I imagine you ever will. So I'm done with you. You're a pathetic, self loathing, self entitled, self important, little bully who picks on people you don't even know because you're mind is so filled with anger and hate, you have to take it out on someone. You've picked people in stealth because it's safe, because they aren't going to come out and say anything to show you for the fool you are.

I think you said that already, up above, Please, don't get boring. I wanna see how far this goes.

Me, I'm tired of having a battle of whits with an unarmed opponent who enjoys kicking puppies and strangling cats when there are no people around you think you can beat up on. I'm so done with this thread, with you, and the entire pathetic concept.

*does a Beverly Hillbilly wave*

come back now, ya hear?

Yeah Alex, I'm a psycho, but I'm in good company with the other crazies here. I have however figured out that you folks are the GLBT equivalent of "Focus on the Family" and that's just sad. You are setting HUMANITY back by encouraging people like Marti.

I got dibs on being the Tranny Dobson!

I'll spend my time dealing and paying attention to decent, intelligent, beautiful women out there who are doing good things for the community. I'll just remember to ignore you from now on. So yeah, you're angry. You're an angry bully.

Wow, now you're repeating yourself. Boring.

well,javier here,
(and i'm not a 'her'per say, i'm diagnostic FTM,
at the moment, so to speak, for what it's worth...)

but,wow
what a lot of emotional fireworks on this blog.

first, anyone IS(intersexed) can consider themselves part of the community!

for you to say "i wasn't talking to you" seems unfair, she can weigh in!
why are you telling her she can't, when you welcome Gay men weighing in?
(also,i feel that this is OUR issue,not gay men's, and they should respect that.
those that are respectful).

as to ENDA, there are STILL ALOT of Gay men who DO NOT want us "holding them back"
more than you think!
THAT'S one thing we should address, before anything(?).

i know you have, on your blog, but in real time?

also,i really do not want to fight with you.
i do NOT want to piss you off.
we are and should be allies in my opinion,
and i respect your time effort and commitment to the TG community.

as i stated,
the question is one of TONE.
by YELLING at people, you offend and alienate them.why?
can't we have this SAME discussion without making people who live as MALE or FEMALE (not TRANS)
not feel like"bad" people? this discussion can not even take place with this level of hate.
do you want to talk, or do you want to HURT people?that's what i meant by the RIGHT wing referance(also some TACTICS...)


but,why are these others "bad"?
to me it seems like a matter of defining oneself.if you define as TRANS,
you define as trans.fine.
if you define as a male or female, then THAT is your choice.
maybe they want to be "people" not just a "word", like TRANS.

are you seriously telling me that you think that people will be considered "men" and "women" by
the public if they TELL the public they are DNA opposite of what they present?
society is not THERE.(they will be "men in dresses" to people.)operation or not.

and, if YOU think that TRANSSEXXUALITY is in it self LEGITIMATE,
(and i assume you DO)
as in you are a "woman in a man's body", why do YOU want to define as TRANS, not WOMAN?

isn't gender in one's mind and head not genitals, etc?
a "TRANSWOMAN" is a differant concept then a "women" to people.
why let anyone know that you grew up in a differant gender?why is it their business anyway?

don't you think the best role models for kids are "men" and "women" not a medical term?
if YOU feel both,(m and f) what's wrong with genderqueer as a defination?
at least we made that one up !
not doctors.if i accept you as a women, i call you a woman.
right?why confuse it.(and what about "harry benjamin syndrome" what happened to that? it's in the new dsm!)

and by the way,this issue of role models is bogus.
the kids i have met want to be "guys" or "girls" not "trannies"
they want to pass, and live their lives.
or they're genderqueer.(and want to live that way)
so that reason is false!

as for the person who said i'm crazy for some reason, i guess thinking that we can discuss this
without hate IS crazy,you're right!
i was also saying that one's personhood and WHOLE identity changes, on coming out as TG to
someone, IN THEIR eyes,not just your ORIENTATION, you are "someone ELSE" to them, then!
like,new DIFFERANT gender, yes?
so it's ALOT more then saying "i'm gay"


ok,one more time, marti,
can't we discuss this with out you being unreasonably angry with people who want
to live as MEN OR WOMEN not TRANS?
if they want that, isn't it not HIDING, but being who they REALLY are?
the body is just the shell, the identity resides in the brain and mind.
i thought that was actually what TG MEANT?

isn't it?
YOU think of yourself differantly than these other people.
there is NO right or wrong.

also, i don't know ANYONE who WANTS to be trans.
"genderqueer, guy or girl".not "trans".

but if some people do want to call themselves that word,it's a free country.
you'll have a hard time selling this.
and i don't know why you are.
tg people feel they have a DEFECT alot of the time.as in "wrong body"etc

no one wants to BE a defect. just a human being.
but you're a smart lady, so you know that anyway.......

(this whole blog really starts some shit, and not in the good way)

FROM:The T is officially out of the ENDA
Filed by: Alex Blaze
comment:I recommend that all non "straight-acting,
straight-appearing" LGBT folks keep their passports updated.


comment:
'to define a behavior and a group of LGB who fit in it as "straight-acting" or
"straight-appearing" is pejorative. It implies that this group is not just as much gay as
their genderbending counterparts. It is important to note the danger of misappropriation of
behaviors and concepts; one's mannerisms should never contain connotations linked to sexual
orientation. These sort of descriptions just serve to make a sector of LGB feel as if they
don't even belong to the community either because we emulate our common oppressors, and thus
we betray the community by adopting "straight" behavior.
-Lucrece'


though i'm not a gay man or women,
and though i do agree that ENDA needs to cover ALL orientations and gender identities,
and there is a vocal community calling for "T"S out"in GLB land...

it seems like this blog has a real THING about "straight acting"
now,as in:there is no such thing as masculine or feminine gay men and women(!?)....

TG people are getting called out on THEIR "straight acting" too,
but the point the commenter is making is that he CAN be sterotypically male and still be GAY,
and that's getting heat again HERE-

ok.so genderqueer goes after the "manly" gay, TG goes after "straight acting" transsexuals,
gay men go after the "flamers"etc etc...
wow. the end of times IS here....

i don't think i'm the crazy one
here "alex" and company.
you guys are stirring up the shit all over.
great timing is all i can say.
great bloody timing.

our whole community is going after itself.
yeah, "crazy"

whatever happened to respecting each other?
you guys are starting to remind me of some sort of anne coulters or something,
stirring the pot for "effect" and edginess.what, for media readership? for "politics"?
this is the politics of the Right, my friends. personal attacks and divisiveness.

this blog is REALLY starting to depresses me.....
(this whole blog really starts some shit, and not in the good way)

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Play nice, people!

(wow samanthaq you're a moderator here? glad someone is not taking all this lying down lol!)

but i SO don't get them here at BILERICO:
found this:from "alex blaze"
(now remember, this origional marti opinion is about 'being out'
so now i read THIS by alex 'you're crazy'Blaze


"Why Come Out?"

That's the question asked by Alex Blaze
at The Bilerico Project. He has the data to indicate it's not so you can get ahead in the world:

Considering that, when adjusted for occupation and several other factors, the Task Force found that gay men make about 83% what the average straight man does, I really can't blame someone for being closeted. This UCLA study found that same-sex couples of either sex made about $12,000 less than their straight counterparts and were about 23% less likely to have a college degree. In fact, GLSEN found that LGBT-identified high school students were about twice as likely to not have any sort of post-secondary education on the mind.

And that's just when it comes to economic success. Queer-identified people are still more
likely to be victims of violence, more likely to to be turned away from homeless shelters,
more likely to be ostracized from their families. For what? A label?

So we're back at the main question of "Why come out?" It seems to be inviting a whole lot of trouble for not so much return. Of course, there are other ways to measure that return in terms of ethics and honesty, comfortability with one's identity, and slightly more psychic coherence, but those material disadvantages to coming out can be quite strong.

Well, I'm not planning on jumping back in the closet at this age, even though the system punishes people who are out and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

*ok, he has the right to feel that way, we should all be free to feel the way we do, but,uh, the TG people can't?
i SO do not get this blog.
any thoughts marti?
"alex"?


and i'm only calling for civil discussion.
not gagging your right to debate the out/non out question.
TONE is what i said.
TONE.
(and hey,have a nice day samanthaq!)

SQ isn't a moderator, but I am. Those comments violated ToS, and I posted the generic message about that.

i SO do not get this blog.

It's not that complicated. It's a group blog where different people post different things, generally about LGBTQ relevant subjects.

Why am I "alex" and Marti's Marti, without quotation marks? Trust me, that's my real name. OK, Alexander is, but only my grandma calls me that.

But anyway, that post wasn't advocating that people stay in the closet, it was a discussion of the economic/material disadvantages of self-producing a signifier and a criticism of those who advocate coming out while ignoring those realities, creating a bizarre and non-transformative top-down identity politics. Marti isn't Judy Shepard telling people that if they come out and lose their job, well, it was just a job and they can just go and get another one.

In other words, the power dynamic at play in the GL community is different from that in the T community, and the argument was different because it was responding to different cultural forces.

But in no way was I advocating that people stay in that closet. That'd be asinine.

Why are you spending so much time on this post? Go visit the newer ones where people will actually interact with you.

Honestly I wish I were a moderator here, I'd have taken the whole stupid angry thing down a long, long time ago. I haven't looked at much of the site, but I have looked at others Marti plays in and are Marti's own creation, and this is what Marti does, make trouble. Seems that in this particular group, Marti has found other like minded "people" who enjoy this kind of stuff. So much of what is wrong with the whole GLBTIQ community can be found here, like you say.

Instead of solidarity and working together as a family, a community, you have the same old, age old pooh. Though to be honest the whole angry, self loathing, Tranny basher going after other people who are making their own journey is kinda new. Not bad enough there are men who dress in women's clothes for sexual gratification trying to get rights and protections for something that is largely a fetish, but now we have Transsexuals beating on other people.

Like you say, depressing.

Though to be honest, for all Marti's noise, Marti doesn't say anything about Marti that makes much sense. I've been trying really hard not to use the wrong gender or pronouns because Marti's angry enough without misgendering Marti. So I feel like I have to be too careful with Marti when I'm writing.

It's all very strange, until this post I didn't know Marti from a can of paint. Really don't want to know Marti, but by the same token I'm offended at Marti's wholesale bashing of Trans folks. I know so many activists from the gender community, both personally and in terms of whats going on who don't have Marti's issues. So many women have in fact come out of the closet so to speak in order to be positive roles models for both the world, as well as other Trans people. They didn't do it because of shame, but a certain level of self respect, and a wish to prove we are real people with lives and feelings.

Marti's just angry and lashing out with hate. I wouldn't want Marti in Washington or at any state level advocating for anyone. Why? Because Marti is the wrong kind of example to set, the wrong statement to make. Marti's attitude alone would fill a room with pain and anger, without a single word being said, and people notice this. People react to this at a visceral level, and this will poison any work Marti might otherwise accomplish.

Life inside the beltway is a complex dance, and appearance says a great deal. Like transition, how you appear in terms of that undefinable self acceptance is major. Seem nervous, jittery, scared, show, or even "smell" like fear and they will rip you to shreds. Much the same goes for anger...

Why do I bother spend the time here? Because, I don't want Marti's hate speech to be the only thing here. Marti can not be, should not be allowed to make such hateful noise and claim from high in Marti's tower to be the "High and Mightiness of Right" like Marti does. Anytime and place that someone stands up and says, I am the ultimate high and mighty and you are all unworthy, someone needs to be there with a battery of trebuches to say otherwise.

Honestly I feel the Mods of this site should just pull the whole thread out, making a statement they don't support Marti's unique kind of Tranny bashing. Especially since Marti is picking on people who by definition cannot, or will not stand up for themselves. Marti's initial post is inherently abusive to say the least, and as such in violation of the ToS.

So, Alex, how is it, if this whole site is not part of the "G" agenda to drive "T" people out, is it that this thread was allowed in the first place. I can understand missing it, you can't be the police of the whole world. Leaving it running, allowing it to remain, for the world to see, is a poor reflection on everyone in the GLBTIQ community.

So, maybe we'll stop talking about it, and focus on the rest of the site when the Mods take this one out, just make the whole hateful thing disappear, like my last two posts. Okay if Marti is a hateful bigot, but the moment someone with passion and energy stands up and says this is not acceptable they get their post erased. I find it interesting. Thankfully I still have a copy of it. I'll freely admit my post wasn't perfect, far from it, by I attempted to paint with the same brush, from the same can Marti did to make a point. Marti's post remains and mine doesn't? Come on Alex, tell me this isn't one sided and you are ipso defacto supporting Marti's hateful, abusive and discriminatory thinking.

I think Alex, short for Alexander is a perfectly wonderful name. Strong, classy, and oh so warm in many ways without being femmy. I have a nephew named Alexander, so I'm a bit partial to it.

Oh, and one last thought, Not only does Marti beat on people who aren't likely to notice or respond, but uses African American's to justify what Marti is saying? Sorry, but there is as much complexity in that community as there is here, and there are the people you don't see, who are normal people living life. Then there people that think I owe them money because they were once slaves and are owed reparations? Sorry it doesn't work that way. Back when slavery was going on, my ancestors were either still back on the other side of the pond, or having their land and lives taken from them by the same people who enslaved the other people.

What about the reparations for my ancestors, the Native Americans who suffered just as much or more. Marti is serving Marti's agenda, and it makes everyone look bad that enables this kind of thinking.

So Alex, how about just shutting the whole thread down and off so that the controversy is allowed to die off? Be a mench will you, just pull the whole thing and be done with it. This way maybe we can go and find the good stuff your site has to offer!

Javier, you have a nice day too! Maybe one day I'll be lucky enough to find a good guy like you to share some time with.

Sam

I'm not going to argue about the rules, Sam. If you don't like them, you can always go here and change the world your own way.

I'm not going to argue about the rules, Sam. If you don't like them, you can always go here and change the world your own way.

I'm not interested in arguing about the rules Alex, far from it. Just interested in why they are not being objectively applied. Simple question, didn't mean to stir up anything, certainly didn't mean to put you in a bad spot either. Seems like there is an agenda here, and I'm almost afraid to read more of the blog because I'm afraid of what I'll find.

You do what you want, I'm just more concerned about the statements you are making by the way you enforce them.

Sam

Your comments were clearly abusive, going on a specific, mean-spirited, personal attack on Marti for a couple of screens. It wasn't intended to help a discussion, it was just an attack on her personally. Whatever you think about her politics or opinions, she doesn't deserve it.

Feel free to peruse the rest of the blog. We put up 10-15 posts a day, so I don't know why you're so caught up in this old one.

Sorry, I so didn't mean to post that last one twice, just my connection having issues...

Sam

Your comments were clearly abusive, going on a specific, mean-spirited, personal attack on Marti for a couple of screens. It wasn't intended to help a discussion, it was just an attack on her personally. Whatever you think about her politics or opinions, she doesn't deserve it.

Well, now see, there you go. Exactly the double standard I see playing out here. It is okay for "contributers" to this blog to put together a "clearly abusive, going on a specific, mean-spirited, personal attack on" people who are not going to reply but not okay to do it to them?

So the rules you mentioned before that we are not talking about are actually more a "do as we say, not as we do" kind of thing then?

When I was a kid, for years I'd get picked on, threatened, and worse because I was different. When everyone else got to take tap, ballet, play the flute and so on, I was in a dojo learning how to defend myself. One of the things drilled into my head was not to go looking for a fight. Don't brag about it, don't dare someone to fight me so I could defend myself, nothing. Act like nothing was going on, turn and walk away. Walkaway from the first punch, the second, even the third give them every opportunity to wise up on their own BEFORE I came down on them like a bag of hammers.

Finally after years of this nonsense, and coming home crying from school, my father insisted that I'd walked away from more than enough attacks by this one bully at school. I kid you not, he met us at the bus stop with a rifle. Whole bunch of boys surrounded me, cause "today" was they day they were going to hurt me once and for all. Hey there faggot, we're going to kill you today! My father fired a shot in the air and said "Anyone wants a piece of my kid can have it, the ONLY rule is one at a time. YOU (looking pointedly at me) are going to fight them fair and square one at a time or I'm going to shoot you. Anyone cheats, I shoot them!" He was serious.

I let the big bully have the first three punches, saying each time, "Please don't make me hurt you, because today you're going to be the one crying." Didn't work, he started the fourth punch and I just opened up on him. Was like kicking a puppy. Sure I was smaller than him, "weaker looking" and so forth, but what I lacked in power and size, I made up for in speed, maneuverability and skill and I didn't stop until he was laying there on the ground crying. Never landed a hit that would leave a mark, a bruise that could be seen next day or so in school, nothing. I took him to a place he never recovered from, because in that very short period of time, without doing anything obvious that would leave him with battle scars or blood anywhere I destroyed him. I took from him that which he treasured the most, his bravado, his kind of the hill, I am the greatest attitude and had him on the group crying.

So effective, so powerful a statement, because I moved to fast, and knew exactly how and where to strike, it didn't look like much. Plus it was over too fast for everyone else there to understand, so all they understood was that he was going to kill me and I made him cry like a girl. It was terribly unfair and even cruel, I fought him to the pain, and in so many ways it hurt me more than he got physically hurt. Point was, I was still kicking puppies in that battle. I went from being some kind of weird creature to being cut a wide swath and left alone. In high school the rare times someone started with me they'd almost always say, "What, are you going to make me cry?" and someone else said yeah.

That one guy went from being a big time bully and jock, to having people sing whenever he walked by: "Georgie porgy puddin pie, hits the girls and they make him cry..."

My point is, serious inequity just gets under my fur, and here you have group sanctioned abuse, but the moment someone turns it back around on them, it's unacceptable? I really don't care what the whole point of the overall blog project is, or which part of what community it is for, or in this case, targeting AT. The moment you allow someone to take a stand like the original post, but NOT allow someone to give it back, you are creating a problem, it is administration supported violence.

Why am I here? Why this post now? Because someone brought my attention to it as WHY Barney and his goons threw out the T in GBLT. Why gender was being taken out of ENDA. Because self entitled militant G extremists were pointing to stuff like the original post, and the person who wrote it, saying: "See, they are crazy, they attack their own."

YOU are giving them fuel for their campaign of hate, enabling, supporting, endorsing and otherwise allowing them to come after us. All of us. Doesn't matter who or when, a community divided within, cannot stand up to the attacks from the outside.

I've read a whole bunch of the posters other material and regardless of the details involved, they stir up poo in the least useful, most unbecoming way. Bad enough this person does it without sanction and assistance elsewhere on the net, but to have a group like this encourage and protect this makes you look bad. I've read some of your other stuff Alex, and while young and rough around the edges, you make some decent points. But, you sanction and protect full on hate speech from others?

This IS the kind of stuff the RIGHT, NEOCONS and Religious Extremists use to bolster their claims that the bible says we are all abominations. Why we need to be EXCLUDED from everything and anything, and why it is okay to pull us into an alley, beat and then murder us.

Does that answer your question? You are getting NEGATIVE press from the "T" community. That's why I came here, and why I think the mods need to pull the whole thing. Listen to Alice's Restaurant, the part about movements, then realize that your little movement says "T" people are clearly insane and eat their own, worse yet, this is exactly what "G" people say about "T" people anyway?

"Stealth" people are holding the angry, nasty poster back? Not hardly. The poster is holding the poster back and is the posters own worst enemy. Problem is, the poster being such a "Martin Downey" type is making everyone look. The poster IS THE REASON so many people go into stealth. The mods of this board, yourself included only make it worse. Accessory to a hate crime.

Does that make any more sense to you? I'm trying to have a fairly civil, intelligent discourse about this, while any number of self appointed control types tell me by action that "might makes right" and I'm a nobody, so I can't even talk about it. So, more than just my brain is female, and that makes me medically intersexed. Big friggin deal, I still had to "transition" and deal with all the same things a so called "Tranny" has to in my journey to me. So let's see, following the poster's "logic" I have to make a big stink and not go into stealth or I'm holding the poster back?

How is that NOT the fetish type, demanding the right to stagger into the ladies room, pick up the seat, stand there peeing, leave the seat up and come out with a "Hey baby how YOU doin?" lear and a pat on my bum. How is that not the Honorable Barney (I'm an out gay man who has everything I want) Frank saying; "See, 'Trannies' eat their own and don't deserve rights because they are freaks!"

The number of posts against what the original poster are more than double the posts in support of it, worse, the two to one gap rises considerably when you take into account that the Mods are siding with the original poster because so few other people are. The mods are supporting hate speech in this thread.

So, Alex, are you "T"? Or just "G" watching the community get shredded for kicks.

Sam

I'm going to step in here for a second.

Play nice

As a blog with almost 50 contributors, you'll find posts here that you agree with and others that you don't. That's the thing about diversity and the LGBT community - there is no group think.

But we do play by some simple rules here and the biggest one is "No personal attacks." Sam's comment clearly crossed the line by attacking one individual specifically. Notice that this comment thread is almost to 100 comments - most of which have been allowed to stand as written by readers. We have no problem with folks disagreeing with our contributors - as along as it's done civilly.

As Javiar said above, "Tone." We, as a community, can do better. We cover a lot of topics here that bring up deep seated passions and beliefs. We challenge those quite often - from just about every perspective. We'll continue to do that because it gets us all talking.

That's the point of the experiment.

Read others posts. Stay up to date with current discussions where the contributors (and other readers) can dialogue with you. I think you'll like it here.

first, anyone IS(intersexed) can consider themselves part of the community!

Most intersexed people I know make a VERY wide distinction in self identification.

as i stated,
the question is one of TONE.
by YELLING at people, you offend and alienate them.why?
can't we have this SAME discussion without making people who live as MALE or FEMALE (not TRANS)
not feel like"bad" people? this discussion can not even take place with this level of hate.
do you want to talk, or do you want to HURT people?that's what i meant by the RIGHT wing referance(also some TACTICS...)

I don't hate. But you're saying people shouldn't feel bad about being dishonest. If the truth hurts, maybe that's not such a bad kind of hurt.

are you seriously telling me that you think that people will be considered "men" and "women" by
the public if they TELL the public they are DNA opposite of what they present? society is not THERE.(they will be "men in dresses" to people.)operation or not

No, I'm saying that if you don't live your truth, you're living a lie. I've never said you should wear an "I'm a tranny" t-shirt.

and, if YOU think that TRANSSEXXUALITY is in it self LEGITIMATE, (and i assume you DO) as in you are a "woman in a man's body", why do YOU want to define as TRANS, not WOMAN?

You can be a transgender woman, just as you can be an African American woman. I define myself as what I am. I wasn't born in the wrong body. To think that is highly misogynistic...it's assuming that there are "male bodies" that are men and women bodies that are women. The reality is there can be men with vagina's and women with penises. I am male bodied, but I have a female gender identity.

isn't gender in one's mind and head not genitals, etc?
a "TRANSWOMAN" is a differant concept then a "women" to people.
why let anyone know that you grew up in a differant gender?why is it their business anyway?

Because people need to know that we exist. They need to know we aren't weird, dangerous people. They need to know that we deserve human dignity.

don't you think the best role models for kids are "men" and "women" not a medical term? if YOU feel both,(m and f) what's wrong with genderqueer as a defination? at least we made that one up ! not doctors.if i accept you as a women, i call you a woman.right?why confuse it.(and what about "harry benjamin syndrome" what happened to that? it's in the new dsm!)

I've never seen HBS being included in the next DSM. The best role models for my children is that they learn that I'm a human being that deserves respect and tolerance. Transgender isn't a medical word. It's describes more fully what kind of a woman I am. It doesn't make me any less of one.

I do pass. But that isn't the point. I don't mind if folks know I'm transgender. It's an education process that they need to go through.

I'm not ashamed of being transgender, any more than I'm ashamed of being left handed. It's part of who I am. I'm not going to deny that.

Samantha, you're making the same points over and over again, so I'm just going to side step your hateful commentary. Debating you is like trying to teach a cat french... it's frustrating and doesn't really change anything.

Your comments were clearly abusive, going on a specific, mean-spirited, personal attack on Marti for a couple of screens. It wasn't intended to help a discussion, it was just an attack on her personally. Whatever you think about her politics or opinions, she doesn't deserve it.

Well, now see, there you go. Exactly the double standard I see playing out here. It is okay for "contributers" to this blog to put together a "clearly abusive, going on a specific, mean-spirited, personal attack on" people who are not going to reply but not okay to do it to them?

So the rules you mentioned before that we are not talking about are actually more a "do as we say, not as we do" kind of thing then?

When I was a kid, for years I'd get picked on, threatened, and worse because I was different. When everyone else got to take tap, ballet, play the flute and so on, I was in a dojo learning how to defend myself. One of the things drilled into my head was not to go looking for a fight. Don't brag about it, don't dare someone to fight me so I could defend myself, nothing. Act like nothing was going on, turn and walk away. Walkaway from the first punch, the second, even the third give them every opportunity to wise up on their own BEFORE I came down on them like a bag of hammers.

Finally after years of this nonsense, and coming home crying from school, my father insisted that I'd walked away from more than enough attacks by this one bully at school. I kid you not, he met us at the bus stop with a rifle. Whole bunch of boys surrounded me, cause "today" was they day they were going to hurt me once and for all. Hey there faggot, we're going to kill you today! My father fired a shot in the air and said "Anyone wants a piece of my kid can have it, the ONLY rule is one at a time. YOU (looking pointedly at me) are going to fight them fair and square one at a time or I'm going to shoot you. Anyone cheats, I shoot them!" He was serious.

I let the big bully have the first three punches, saying each time, "Please don't make me hurt you, because today you're going to be the one crying." Didn't work, he started the fourth punch and I just opened up on him. Was like kicking a puppy. Sure I was smaller than him, "weaker looking" and so forth, but what I lacked in power and size, I made up for in speed, maneuverability and skill and I didn't stop until he was laying there on the ground crying. Never landed a hit that would leave a mark, a bruise that could be seen next day or so in school, nothing. I took him to a place he never recovered from, because in that very short period of time, without doing anything obvious that would leave him with battle scars or blood anywhere I destroyed him. I took from him that which he treasured the most, his bravado, his kind of the hill, I am the greatest attitude and had him on the group crying.

So effective, so powerful a statement, because I moved to fast, and knew exactly how and where to strike, it didn't look like much. Plus it was over too fast for everyone else there to understand, so all they understood was that he was going to kill me and I made him cry like a girl. It was terribly unfair and even cruel, I fought him to the pain, and in so many ways it hurt me more than he got physically hurt. Point was, I was still kicking puppies in that battle. I went from being some kind of weird creature to being cut a wide swath and left alone. In high school the rare times someone started with me they'd almost always say, "What, are you going to make me cry?" and someone else said yeah.

That one guy went from being a big time bully and jock, to having people sing whenever he walked by: "Georgie porgy puddin pie, hits the girls and they make him cry..."

My point is, serious inequity just gets under my fur, and here you have group sanctioned abuse, but the moment someone turns it back around on them, it's unacceptable? I really don't care what the whole point of the overall blog project is, or which part of what community it is for, or in this case, targeting AT. The moment you allow someone to take a stand like the original post, but NOT allow someone to give it back, you are creating a problem, it is administration supported violence.

Why am I here? Why this post now? Because someone brought my attention to it as WHY Barney and his goons threw out the T in GBLT. Why gender was being taken out of ENDA. Because self entitled militant G extremists were pointing to stuff like the original post, and the person who wrote it, saying: "See, they are crazy, they attack their own."

YOU are giving them fuel for their campaign of hate, enabling, supporting, endorsing and otherwise allowing them to come after us. All of us. Doesn't matter who or when, a community divided within, cannot stand up to the attacks from the outside.

I've read a whole bunch of the posters other material and regardless of the details involved, they stir up poo in the least useful, most unbecoming way. Bad enough this person does it without sanction and assistance elsewhere on the net, but to have a group like this encourage and protect this makes you look bad. I've read some of your other stuff Alex, and while young and rough around the edges, you make some decent points. But, you sanction and protect full on hate speech from others?

This IS the kind of stuff the RIGHT, NEOCONS and Religious Extremists use to bolster their claims that the bible says we are all abominations. Why we need to be EXCLUDED from everything and anything, and why it is okay to pull us into an alley, beat and then murder us.

Does that answer your question? You are getting NEGATIVE press from the "T" community. That's why I came here, and why I think the mods need to pull the whole thing. Listen to Alice's Restaurant, the part about movements, then realize that your little movement says "T" people are clearly insane and eat their own, worse yet, this is exactly what "G" people say about "T" people anyway?

"Stealth" people are holding the angry, nasty poster back? Not hardly. The poster is holding the poster back and is the posters own worst enemy. Problem is, the poster being such a "Martin Downey" type is making everyone look. The poster IS THE REASON so many people go into stealth. The mods of this board, yourself included only make it worse. Accessory to a hate crime.

Does that make any more sense to you? I'm trying to have a fairly civil, intelligent discourse about this, while any number of self appointed control types tell me by action that "might makes right" and I'm a nobody, so I can't even talk about it. So, more than just my brain is female, and that makes me medically intersexed. Big friggin deal, I still had to "transition" and deal with all the same things a so called "Tranny" has to in my journey to me. So let's see, following the poster's "logic" I have to make a big stink and not go into stealth or I'm holding the poster back?

How is that NOT the fetish type, demanding the right to stagger into the ladies room, pick up the seat, stand there peeing, leave the seat up and come out with a "Hey baby how YOU doin?" lear and a pat on my bum. How is that not the Honorable Barney (I'm an out gay man who has everything I want) Frank saying; "See, 'Trannies' eat their own and don't deserve rights because they are freaks!"

The number of posts against what the original poster are more than double the posts in support of it, worse, the two to one gap rises considerably when you take into account that the Mods are siding with the original poster because so few other people are. The mods are supporting hate speech in this thread.

So, Alex, are you "T"? Or just "G" watching the community get shredded for kicks.

Sam

LOL. You compared me to Nazi's. I wonder why you're not being taken seriously?

hmm interesting tread then im a rank newbie to this site to as well as admitting that I am Tans so yep I appear male still but for the kicker. I have been a cross dresser since I was 13!Talk about being a minority with in a community.But let me tell you it was easier telling folks im also pagan and bisexual than it has been that im Trans!So we each out ourselfs when we feel the person were outing ourselfs to will be comfy with us and not try and well beat the hell out of us!But the few who tried that learned I fight dirty.

Cathy