And for the same record, Michael, as one who absolutely opposes this war and the administration that wasn't truthful concerning the reasons for pursuing it, has grossly mismanaged it to the point of justifying serious consideration of impeachment proceedings, if not more, I believe the MoveOn.org piece was in very poor taste and timing. Sorry, but sometimes the wisdom to know you're creating a story and a political target and when not to is part of maturity. For my money, MoveOn.org seldom seems to have it.

I think what's really in poor taste is that Giuliani ad about Clinton. He's just trying to silence dissent by making anyone who disagrees with any aspect of the way the Bush Admin has handled the war out to be a traitor. Gawsh. It just boggles the mind that he would put out an ad like that as if Bush and co. could possibly do no wrong. Hurting the troops? A pointless war is what's hurting the troops. Ugh.

And what's this about acting like the fact that Hillary wears glasses is somehow a reason to think that she's a bad person (you know that's why they ran that pic twice in that ad). All three of us here, at least in our pics, are Optometrically-challenged Americans, and I think that's what's really hurting America.

Michael: I truly do understand the good things that MoveOn.org has done. And this little scuffle may well simply prove to be another unrembered footnote in the larger scheme of things. I was in my 30's when some too much a leftward antiwar lurch within the Democratic partly led to Nixon's election and re-election. The spectre of a Republican retaining the White House in 2008 and making more appointments to the Supreme Court that would seal its rightward tilt for perhaps another generation or more scares the BeJezus out of me, even more so that the thought, which I think realistic, that a more centrist Democrat might still be faced with keeping some troops in the area. Hence my caution and squeamishness on this kind of issue.

Giuliani ran his attack ad because, just a few days after announcing, Freddie Thompson is nipping at his heels. Giuliani’s lost his lead and in desperation exposed his ‘inner bigot’ by backtracking on GLBT Equality and refusing to budge from his prowar stance.

It’s ludicrous to assume Hillary Clinton had the backbone to attack the war criminal in the White House or General Petraeus; she’s far too slick to be pinned down. At the American Legion convention she said the surge was working. Later at the Latino debate she called for yet another nebulous timetable for withdrawal. She arrogantly refuses to support samesex marriage, because if Bill Clinton is the daddy of DOMA, she’s it’s midwife.

Like Vietnam this is an unwinnable war typified by near genocidal casualties, GI’s getting mauled, and by a huge new air campaign that’s pushing the civilian death toll even higher.

A plague on both their houses. Don’t vote for our enemies in the Democratic and Republican Party. Vote for leftwing parties or independent African American or Latino candidates or join and build the union controlled US Lab Party.

Sure, Bill. And help assure a Republican win.

Union controlled? Don't you mean the Democrats? But why in the hell would I want to vote for a leftwing party and throw my vote away? After 8 years of BushCo it'll be even more important to get a Democrat in office. They may not be perfect, but they're a lot closer to my ideals than the Republican party, that's for sure!

And too far, Don? I don't think so. Blindly supporting the Bush administration IS betraying the American people. As a nation, we voted overwhelmingly to throw out Bush's sycophants so the newcomers would stop the war. In response, Bush flipped us the bird and increased the number of troops. To bring it back down to where it was before the vote is a poke in the eye. Sadly, I'm just as frustrated with the do-nothing Democrats who have allowed it to continue. Nancy Pelosi has really disappointed me as Speaker of the House.

A vote for the Democrats is a vote for Republican politics; a longer war, union busting, antigay bigotry, immigrant bashing, attacks on civil liberties. It's not that the Democrats aren't perfect, they’re indistinguishable from the Republicans except cosmetically. Voting for either is a wasted vote, a vote for the enemy.

If the Unions controlled the Democratic Party they'd have shot Bill Clinton down for NAFTA. But look who got shot down instead. The AFL-CIO is in a steep decline and split 50/50 two years ago over the question of wasting union money on shyster politicians instead of using it to organize the unorganized. Sooner or later that development will kill the Democrats.