Oh GOD...

Sue

Gay? Not really. It's kind of the same thing as the Ultimate Fighting post - too violent to be gay for me.

But I have to admit I watched the old show and enjoyed it. I liked it because unlike UFC they don't beat each other bloody. They smacked each other with giant Q-tips and played dodgeball with cannons.

Ninja Warrior does play here in the US. It's the original translated. If you're saying you'd like to see an American version - I'm totally with you. I'd love to watch hot guys doing all that gymnastics, jumping and rolling around in mud and water. That would be the gayest TV show ever.

Michael, I TOTALLY watched this show in the 80's. I think the spandex is TOTALLY gay. And you know I'm all about hawt chicks chicks getting physical. Yeah, buddy.

I think there is a very good arguement to be made that unchallenged masculinity, as worshipped by UFC and similar fighting entertainment, is anti-queer. Not that I really think Bil was talking about that, so you can unroll your eyes.

Actually, Nick, that's exactly what I meant. These guys are all about being butch and manly and hyper-violent. They reek of the "Gonna club my woman over the head and drag her home" type that I always think more "straight" than gay. Gay to me means freedom from "typical" masculinity.

As a gay man, i don't feel like I have to abide by either a "straight" or "gay" concept of masculinity.

I agree, Michael. Hence my comment about the "sissies" taking to YouTube and getting some popularity. They fly directly in the face of the common concepts of masculinity. They define their masculinity themselves.

When I see things like UFC and AG, I always think of the target audience - young, male teens and young adults. While obviously there are some women fans, it's not their target demographic. I don't see "young male gay teens" as a demographic - they don't really care who's watching as long as the money is coming in. But do they market to the gay consumer like they do to the typical masculine market? No. Why?

Because these shows that glorify violence and full contact sport are traditionally male. They lift up as the "champion" the most ideally masculine model - the fit, muscular, strong athlete. This stereotype has stymied women athletes and warriors for centuries and continue to do so in these shows. While I'd say that fit, muscular, strong women athletes can be just as capable and athletic, I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who thinks "female" when the topic of UFC comes up.

When Michael asks, "How gay is this?" I am compelled to reply "Not much." Instead, it's hyper-masculine heterosexuality. It's every stereotype of what a "good man" should be - from the Greeks to modern day. As a gay man, I've long been seen differently as being not a good man, but instead a "sissy" - no matter how masculine I may or may not truly be. My very gayness, in the eyes of quite a few Americans (and even more members of the target audience of these shows), emasculates me.

Does it truly? No. In their heads? Yes. But in their heads this isn't about gay men and women beating each other bloody. It's about "sport" and watching men club each other with giant Q-tips. They expect heterosexual men.

And that's not "gay" to me. *shrugs*

Bil,

It is kind of funny that you mention the Greeks, since it is well known that homosexuality was widely practiced among the citizens, warriors and atheletes of ancient Greece.

For them, women were only good for procreation, whereas for "fun", a male lover was the best.

The Greeks fully appreciated the homoeroticism of competition between men. Their liturature is full of paens about the love of one man for another, though their love of tragedy usually caused the tales to end badly for one or both.