While you might object to the language there are women's spaces where Pre-Ops don't belong and
a ladies locker room is one such place.

I was surprised to see this on Marti's site and not reposted here.

As both a member of the female half of society and
a former the TG/TS communities i could not imagine
ever setting foot into a women's locker room
with male genitals. To do so is such an in your face act and boldly offensive in my opinion.

we don't dwell on bathroom issues here, which i find a relief from certain "activists" who are obsessed with the bathroom. with that said there is an unwritten code of conduct for transwomen when it comes to their place in women's spaces.

Transwomen are allowed in those spaces on the condition they behave in accordance with the customs women abide by in those spaces. If they cannot abide by those customs then they are ether outed or asked to leave. Nearly all Pre-Ops and TG 's know better then to enter a women's locker room they usually make suitable accommodations and avoid that women's space until they are Post-Op and legally female.

A ladies locker room is no place for Man and if you have male genitals you are a Man end of story.

Take care
Sue

Correction

I didn't see it on Marti's site I saw it somewhere else....

Sue

That phrase "Not my shower" is so uber-possessive.

Like, "my" apparently can be anyone except for a trans-person. Everyone's allowed to own property except trans-people.

There's a reason this sounds so much like Nativist rhetoric, like take back "our" nation, from those awful minorities and immigrants - it's all about letting people know who's in charge and has nothing to do with protecting people.

The most telling part is the "forced to hire" bit - I doubt this legislation forces anyone to hire anyone else, it just prevents firing and prevents hiring discrimination. But the way they see it, trans (and gays, and lesbians, and, and, and, we're all in this boat together) shouldn't be hired. At all. Because they/we don't have a place at the table.

They oughtta just straight up defend starvation and poverty. It'd be tons more honest.

"it's all about letting people know who's in charge and has nothing to do with protecting people."

Exactly, Alex. The "my" shower and the rest of the misinformation in the page just shows the deep sense of superiority and self-righteousness these folks have.

"A ladies locker room is no place for Man and if you have male genitals you are a Man end of story."

Sue-

As you know, we have very different views on this issue. I actually think gender is self-identified, not defined by genitalia. Is someone who has not yet fully physically transitioned less of a woman than someone who has? I personally don't think so.

I respect you views on the subject, but think that this kind of black and whiten definition of gender is a huge source of the problems our community faces.

Besides, the actual ordinance passed is broadly inclusive (I'm not sure I've ever seen taxi's in a non-discrimination policy). For the group to use fear mongering, misinformation, and scare tactics is what is truly repulsive to me.

Thanks!

-Waymon

Alex the Real issue is the Locker Room

Pre-Ops don't belong there.

Take care
Sue

"...and if you have male genitals you are a Man end of story."

Really Sue? What about those of us who can't afford surgery? Are you defining us as men too? Note that I'm not saying transwomen who are pre-op shouldn't use common sense in these situations, but you seem to be using a much broader brush than I'm comfortable with.

Waymon
You can think what you want regarding gender but we are talking about physical sex
Gender is the straw man in this discussion.

Gender is between your ears but what you have in your pants is all about sex, not gender.

The ordinance needs to be repealed or revised.

Take care
Sue

I agree, Rebecca. Those kind of broad strokes are a huge part of what many of us are fighting against. Limiting definitions such as “the genitals make the man” are a large part of why there need to be protections like this ordinance passed.

Rebecca

I have to ask you how is it possible for someone in a woman's locker room to tell the difference between a man who is pervert or worse yet shopping for a rape victim from a Pre-Op TS?

How are women in that locker room suppose to know the difference?
How are suppose to be insured that locker room is safe if someone with male genitals is let in?

I know first hand that safety is an important issue for transfolk having lived as a paleo-TG person. However my old school thinking tells me both borne and post-transition females have the right to safety as transfolk do.

Take care
Sue

Sue-

It is unfortunate that you would discriminate against those who may not have the ability or means to make their outside "sex", as you call it, match their gender. I guess they are just out of luck, in your view.

I just don't agree with you on this.

Waymon
It is unfortunate that you would take such a caviler attitude toward the safety of women.

Take care
Sue

Pardon me Waymon
DON'T put words in my mouth..
I used the phrase physical sex Not outside sex.

Oh well.
I should have expected this ...
Shame on me.

Sue

Sue-

I think women's safety is extremely important. But I also think that painting transpeople as predators, as this group clearly does, is dangerous and wrong.

And you did say "physical sex", I apologize.

What I don't hear you answering is what people that don't have the means to make their "physical sex" completely match their gender are supposed to do. Should they not be allowed to use public accommodations because they might not have the money to fully transition? Should they be discriminated against for that?

I personally don't think so.

I'm non-op and use female facilities. It doesn't take much effort to hide my genitals and do my business of changing into my workout gear.

Its also important to note that its not always genitals that people are object too. Women who are too butch will likely be at risk too. And even if you had genital surgery that doesn't change your height, shoulders, etc which are other factors that people utilize to ascertain people's gender.

I don't consider a locker room in a private business "public accommodation"

One fact that the TG community likes to ignore is that of the all the people who truly want surgery more then half of them find a way to have it.

Take for example a disabled, partially sighted tramswoman who was able to find a part time job and save for her surgery. That was Me by the way...
I live well below the poverty line even with my simi part time job and, i could make it happen.
If it is something a transwoman really wants she can eat a lot of rice and beans and use cheap makeup in order to save the money to have the surgery.

If you could find a way to sort out the perverts from the Pre-Ops i would be all for allowing them into that woman's space.

One last comment....
The people i usually find yelling the loudest abut this are Non-Ops.

Maybe what we really need are three locker rooms
Men's
woman's
and single use.

Take care

Thanks, Emilia!

You bring up a great point. These protections are not just for transgender people. They also protect people who are outside of the “gender-norm” (whatever that may be…), like masculine women or feminine men.

Thanks for joining the discussion. :)

HI Emilia

Your right it's not always about genitals.
One thing most people fail to realize that will tip them off to the sex of a person is how they smell.
HRT has a way of masking that thankfully.

I might add that here in The People's Republic of Kalifornia and in Texas where i use to live tall women (over 6', 2") may be rare but they are not uncommon. When i lived in San Antonio there was a mixed race woman who shopped at the same HEB i did. This woman was 6', 5" almost two hands higher then my best friend.

While we are on this subject the other issue that needs to be brought up is people like you and I who can travel freely in and out of woman's spaces like this usually make an effort to socialize as women. This makes a huge difference and is why some of us have trouble in mainstream society. My best friend and mentor for many years is a pre-op who is 6', 2" she been living and working full time since 96. she is physically larger in every way than i am, she does a good job of punching holes in the size arguments. Granted if you are around five and a half feet and don't have a lot of testosterone damage (male secondary sex traits) you will do better, size isn't as important as presentation.

Sue-

I think it's great that you were able to save for your surgery, but some people may not be able to. When you say "more than half find a way", where does that leave the rest of the people? And even if they are working towards that goal, what do they do in the meantime?

I also think if you are right. If we could separate the "perverts" or any other criminal element out from situations, it would make everything easier. But that's not reality. There are bad elements that cannot be separated out from every situation. Predators don't come with signs or ID cards. But we shouldn’t punish a whole group of people because of that possibility.

And this “Not My Shower” group is implying that all transgender people are predators. That is scapegoating and fearmonmgering.

I am actually with you on the singe use thing. I think it would be much better and safer for everyone if all restrooms/changing rooms, etc were all single use facilities. I’m not so much for having the “men, women, and single-use” as to me that might imply that “single-use” means “other”. I have started to see more “family” restrooms available as an option, which might help with the issue.

Thanks!
-Waymon

You keep on talking about safety, safety, safety, Sue, but what sort of abnormally high risk do pre/non-op TS people pose?

I think that when we all just learn to grow up a little around these issues and stop obsessing over bathroom and locker rooms, we'll learn that the real issues here, like employment, discrimination, and poverty, are what actually pose a danger to people.

I agree on single-use stalls of course...as are, I might add, pretty much every single ladies room stall I've ever seen. Frankly, I'm surprised this is not even more an issue with transguys than transwomen.

Also, Waymon, you hit a big issue right on the nose. What do those of us who either can't or haven't yet had SRS do? We have to live our lives, too. The reality is that a bit more basic human consideration and a little less indulgence in outdated stereotypes is what's really called for here.

You Know Alex.
Your right we all do need to grow up a little around these issues which is why the safety issue needs to be discussed the one group that this impacts the most i see is not represented here in this discussion. I do know how many of my borne female and lesbian friends feel about this issue and frankly they would not be kind in their discussion of this issue.

Think about the absurdity of this thread so far.
Not one Borne Female has commented on it. Streight Lesbian or otherwise. For them it is a No Brain'r

It's easy for you to say "we should obsessing over the bathroom" it's not the bathroom Alex it's the locker room. Unless you visit bathrooms I don't I have never seen nudity in a publicly accessible bathroom at a private business i haven't. nobody gets naked there.

It's easy for you as a Gay Man to minimize this issue. You don't face the issues the female half of this planet must face every day.

This is not like employment discrimination. This is about providing a safe place for people to do what they must.

Take care
Sue

Waymon,
Unfortunately life isn't fair...
If it was i would have been borne sighted instead of blind and not needed surgery to restore partial sight. I also would have been borne fully female instead of with a female brain and a birth defect between my legs. Now i managed to live a decent life and by the way have a very successful electronics career until nature took it's course and i lost some of what little sight i had. (thank god for disability insurance otherwise my standard of living would be even worse) Being borne blind like being borne in the wrong body is a handicap, those who succeed adapt and overcome. Those who feel sorry for themselves never succeed. I don't do "Poor-Me" very well. People make choices they can look at the cake but not eat it.... Some pre-transition females double or triple up as roommates split expenses drive some POS car walk to and from work. they get their surgery, and they don't sit around feeling sorry for themselves. A woman i know here lived in a back room of a business eating off a hot plate and doing odd jobs . she saved up money and had her surgery. You have to ask yourself why don't others make the same kinds of sacrifices??

The single use option for restrooms is the only viable way to deal with the bathroom issue....
But that is not the issue here.
Lets examine some facts;
100% of the reported rapes in the last 2 years were men raping women.

over 95% of the sexual assults during the same period of time were men assulting women.

Why do you lock your door at night?
Why do you lock your car?

The issue really is safety.

Take care
Sue

Personally I would advise a young transwoman to focus on her education as that would impact her overall well-being.

Perhaps I'm just an uppity non-op but I think that we do transwomen a disservice by giving so much emphasis to genital surgeries.

I also think that for those women that it would be an issue that having the surgery won't change much. Nancy Burkeholder was post op when she was asked to leave Michigan. The incident occurred only after she outed herself as transsexual.

I certainly agree with you Emilia on education.

For me and many others it was all about genital surgery from first day we knew something was wrong. (3 years old for me) The difference is you don't see what is between your legs as being a birth defect, I do.

For those of us who had the birth defect fixed it is a large boost in self confidence. we are who we should have been at birth. Most of us can change our documentation all way back to the birth certificate and have the wrong birth certificate sealed only accessible by court order.

i don't know where you came up with the idea that having surgery doesn't change much. it's been my experience it changes a lot. perhaps you should get to know more Post-Op's . I know something on the order of three dozen post-ops and maybe one in five would agree with you.

Take care
Sue

So the presence of male genitalia AUTOMATICALLY makes that person a predator? Those darn things just drive the body around forcing you to ogle, rape, and assault?

Come on!

With a bit of common sense, you can keep things under wraps. Change in the stall, shower at home. Just don't go waving it around! Most pre-ops/non-ops that I know didn't really want to show the thing off anyway.

If someone behaves inappropriately in the locker room, then just deal with it.

I know quite a few post-ops, some of whom have lives I don't envy. Sure they finally got the body they need, but then what? I'm talking about those who do not start out from an economic position of privilege prior prior to transition.

Also, I agree about the needless demonization of those with a penis.

So the presence of male genitalia AUTOMATICALLY makes that person a predator? Those darn things just drive the body around forcing you to ogle, rape, and assault?

Usually not

There are exceptions though....
it is the exceptions we have laws for after all.

Once at the movies i had occasion to sue the ladies room. I found a TG person standing up while using the toilet.
The conversation went like this..

Me.. looks at the man and he looks back.
other person... what are you looking at?
Me... You, Hasn't anybody taught you how to use the bathroom?
other person... Yah so what?

He began to walk out i followed him and in a voice loud enough for everyone to hear. i said.

"If you are going to use the ladies room, Act like a lady not a man in a dress"

and i will do it again the next time this ever happens in my company.

I am no stranger to calling someone out on bad behavior.

Take care
Sue

"Act like a lady not a man in a dress"

Sue-

I'm not sure that is a story I would proudly retell. I'm not sure who made you gender police, but harassing and belittling another person because they don't act the way you think they should is not something to be bragging about in my book.

How you live your life and define yourself is your business and right. To tell others how they should behave or what they should do with their bodies (to have surgery or not) is not, in my opinion. What has worked for you is not the only path for people to take.

The truly good news is those of us who live in the United States still have a God given right to free speech.

As to who made me the gender police?
Same person who made you the Gender anarchist.

So much for bathroom issues.

It really is laughable to see Gay Men commenting on this, since it doesn't impact them in any way shape or form....

Respectfully;
I would have to ask who made any of you here the locker room police.

I haven to like sex segregation it makes me and other females feel safe knowing that we have a place where no man shall tread.

You can go ahead and call me a bigot if you want.
You should ask your Mother how she would feel about having a man in the ladies locker room.

Take care
Sue

Except that most of aren't talking about men in the ladies locker room, Sue.

Only you are.

Okay, some of us know Sue Robins and have seen her rhetoric before. Moving on....

As a cop that does lockerrom policing as part of his duties: I have been using the Mens Lockerrooms for years, since transition. Guess what, I don't have a penis. Before changing my ID to male I felt very out of place when FORCED to use the Womens Lockerrooms. And let me tell you, I have seen more cases of natal-female on natal-female sex acts, including rape, in those lockerrooms than there were reports of men attacking women in lockerrooms. So the whole "protect the women" baloney is just.. baloney. ANYONE who forces themselves on another is a bad person, regardless of genitals or gender. Perverts are of all genders, orienations, and any other variation imaginable.
It is too bad a person claiming to be Trans has such hatred for natal-WOMEN that they will spread the idea that they are just victims waiting to be victimized.

"Except that most of aren't talking about men in the ladies locker room, Sue.

Only you are."

Amen, AnneB.

As to who made me the gender police?
Same person who made you the Gender anarchist.

Waymon's now a gender anarchist? Seriously?

And I would say that issues regarding gender policing and LGBT discrimination protections do affect gay men. And this issue, at least as it's written, is also about transmen.

Bear-

Thanks for raising a good point (and I don't just mean about Sue's rhetoric.... LOL...).

"ANYONE who forces themselves on another is a bad person, regardless of genitals or gender. Perverts are of all genders, orientations, and any other variation imaginable."

That's the whole point of the original post. To blame any one group (like when the "Not MY Shower" folks blame TGs) for sexual perversion is wrong.

The ordinance that was passed was to protect people (TGs and people who don't fit into society and Sue's definition of gender) from discrimination and let them go about their lives. How people can be against that is beyond me.

Hey, I've been called much worse than gender anarchist. If trying to broaden people's minds beyond the narrow gender definition of "boys have a penis, girls have a vagina", then I guess I am pretty radical. :)

And I do think Alex is completely right. Anti-discrimination policies based on gender identity and gender policing affects everyone, LGBT and straight alike.

One thing Bear neglects to mention is female on female sexual assault is rare and the female who is being attacked has a chance of fending off the attacker. I would have to ask Bear how would Bear tell the difference between a man in a dress and a Pre-Op TS or a full time TG person?

SO much for Bear and Bear's dogma.....
moving On.

Waymon...
The original article stated it was a "man in a dress"
now moving on from there...

Alex it is about Transwomen to an extent...
and there is an issue there that does need to be addressed. However as i have said how do you or anybody else here plan on keeping women safe?
I am sorry a locker room is no place for most Pre-Ops and nearly every Non-Op i have ever met.

Waymon

"ANYONE who forces themselves on another is a bad person, regardless of genitals or gender. Perverts are of all genders, orientations, and any other variation imaginable."

How do you propose to insure the safety women in mixed locker rooms? Will you be there for the traumatized ones who were attacked, molested or even raped?
This is so far past what the average Gay Man is capable of understanding.

It will never happen in my locker room law or not.
And Thank God there are no laws that allow that in California or Texas.

Take care
Sue

@sue robins "I would have to ask Bear how would Bear tell the difference between a man in a dress and a Pre-Op TS or a full time TG person?"

I would include a post-op transwoman as well. I've known crossdressers who pass much better then many post-op transwomen.

If your idea for protecting women's dressing room from anything that male looking, surgery won't be much protection.

Spending upwards of $10,000 on a new set of genitals will not protect you from transphobia.

Emilia you are correct Socialization does more for a person blending into female society then genitals facial surgery and fake boobs ever could.

The surgery is for person not for society. I thought i had maid that point earlier oh well i can make it again i guess. with that said i still stand by what i have said...

I still find it interesting that No borne females who live as females have commented on this thread.

We should find out what they think since they are the majority of the kind of people we would find in a ladies locker room.

Take care
Sue

"This is so far past what the average Gay Man is capable of understanding."

Sue-

I would be careful about saying what other people do and do not understand, especially when it come to sexual assault. It might be surprising to you, but women are not the only victims of violent sex crimes.

Now when you quoted the "man in a dress" from the article (comment 37), you where right. That was a quote from the hate-filled, anti-trans group that is launching the attack on gender identity protections. That is how they define ALL trans people.

And the fact that you keep saying that no "borne females" are commenting seems to indicate that you have some kind of gender hierarchy or distinctions that maybe I just don't grasp. All of the women that have commented here are born women, whether transitioned or not. Why all the “bourne women”, “post-op”, and “men in dresses” distinctions? Are these women’s opinions less because they haven’t had a full operation like you?

That’s exactly the narrow thinking that causes gender identity based discrimination in the first place.

again Waymon you are putting words in my mouth.
I used the phrase Borne Females I may have slipped up once and said borne women But i don't think so if i did please sight the post number.

You seem to want to make this about gender when it is really about Sex. Need i remind you Gender is a state of being Not a social construct not an organ but a state of being most likely brought about by by brain chemistry. We are talking about sex here
Penis and Vagina kind of sex, and how the majority of vagina people feel unsafe when penis people are watching them undress. This is because the biology of the majority of penis people gets out of hand when they see naked vagina people.

What about this is so hard to understand?

Gender has nothing to do with this.

Take care
Sue

Well, I am BEAR, not Bear, but since it was parts of my post Sue is trying to skewer I will respond.

The cases of natal-female on natal-female rape in lockerrooms in 2007 (in 1 jurisdiction) was 27, the number of natal-male on natal-female rape in lockerrooms (in same jurisdiction) was 1. However, natal-male on natal-male lockerroom attacks were 74. Notice the word "natal". There were no reports of pre-op Trans or post-Op Trans people raping anybody. Yes, we know the difference in most cases, this TN where post-op Transsexuals are put in the Prison of birth gender because of pre-transition arrest records, or because their TN birth certificates are not changeable by law. Out of state post-ops are a little luckier, but those are few and far between in the area.
Oh wait, did Sue miss the fact I am FTM? Hello Sue, I am post-op FTM, a cop, counselor, chaplain, and seen it from both sides. Female on Female rape is just as brutal, if not worse, than Male on Female rape. Matter of fact, the psychological effect is even worse for women feeling betrayed by another woman, since ignorant folks assume all men are potential rapists anyway. Or in some cases (like Sue's), penis = rapist. I guess we should let all those natal-females out of prison who raped females and males (usually brutally with foreign objects, by over powering the victim first) because they are safer than the Transwoman who just needs to use the toilet, or clean up. (Wonder where FTMs fit into Sue's warpiness. I look like a man, act like a man, carry a penis object, still have a vagina, can beat the crap out of a man or woman with my bare hands, and hate using public restrooms because people like Sue are trying to look at me thru the door crack.)

Actually, gender has everything to do with this post.

Read it again.

The ordinance that was passed talks about GENDER IDENTITY.

You (and the anti-trans group in the post) are the one hung up on genitals and physicality, Sue.

"This is because the biology of the majority of penis people gets out of hand when they see naked vagina people."

Penis=Predator? Ugh. Way to stereotype all men.

"hate using public restrooms because people like Sue are trying to look at me thru the door crack"

You made me smile, BEAR. :)

well Bear i am partially sighted so excuse my blindness.

I would love to know what jurisdiction you are talking about and if they have a law that allows borne males in the lockerooms of borne females.
It does make a difference.

The issue is not allowing pre-op, post-op TS or TG's into the ladies locker room it is about letting Men who identify as Men into the ladies locker room.
Most TS and TG's know enough to ether stay out or behave while they are in such Women's spaces.

I know you are F2M (known that for years) and if you were in any locker room i was in i would expect to act in a civilized female way. If you didn't act appropriately i would be the first to throw you out.

Remember again the article in question is talking about MEN(translate as borne MALES) in the ladies locker room.

Keep in mind Bear i to this point have not been calling people names or using phrases like you have. I don't lower myself to using phrases like

Transwoman who just needs to use the toilet, or clean up. (Wonder where FTMs fit into Sue's warpiness.

By the way i have been Post-Transition for some time now. Even my doctor in San Antonio couldn't tell the difference. There is a lot to be said for having a good surgeon.

I wouldn't waste my time looking through the crack at or anybody else. if you want to post here in a civil manner please do. Otherwise don't let your testosterone out of control and demean people.

I find it regrettable you have to stoop to childish remarks to try and win a debate.
You were like this before when i left that TG Yahoo group you tried to monopolize.

Hay Don't Taze me Bro.

Sue

You know Waymon that is really a disgusting and degrading comment Bear made.
it shows that too much Testosterone is indeed bad.

I would like to know what city or county he is a cop for.

Take care
Sue

Sue,

The article in question is about gender identity protections - not men in the women's restroom, although this is the scare angle embraced by CRG.

More general comment, in light of ENDA debates of late:

I commend Waymon and any other LGB individual that engages in conversations about these issues from an intent to support transpeople. Sure, Waymon isn't on the front lines, that would be Sue, BEAR, Rebecca, and I. But, if I may press the metaphor too far, he can pressure the government to make sure our Humvee has body armor on it.

This legislation provides no protection against anyone who assaults someone. Even if the attacker is trans and assaults a woman in a locker room.

This legislation does, however, provide some legal support for transwomen who need to pee. If she is pre-op/non-op and pisses standing up, yes, it will spook the horses but at the end of the fucking day nobody is hurt by that. Arresting her would be a waste of money. Sheesh. It's a big world out there.

Thank you, Paris. Finally a voice of reason.

While I agree I am not on the front lines, I try and do all I can to support my trans brothers and sisters in the fight for protections and rights.

That includes trying to push the definitions of "gender" and people's perceptions of them by talking about TG issues.

I am sorry if you were offended, Sue, but you have to understand that the story you told offend many people as well. Harassing a TG person and publicly embarrassing them because they didn't think they acted "like a lady should" is offensive and degrading.

Comments like "it shows that too much Testosterone is indeed bad" also are offensive and again show you general bias against men. If anyone should take a step back and be more respectful, I think it should be you.

Now thank you for the lively conversation, everyone, but I am off to bed.

Paris i think you are confusing the Locker room with the Rest room. We are talking about the locker room here and by adopting a law that would allow men, in that women's space the law and the owner of the business allows for additional opportunities for assault. I find that unacceptable, what is really needed is a law that would allow a transperon to use these facilities if a letter from a licensed therapist is on file with the business. All of us who are Post-Op have had to deal with these situations in order to accommodate the standards of care. There are ways everyone's legitimate needs can be met.

in my almost 28 years living a crossgender live i have only been asked to leave a restroom once, it was the men's room at a local multiplex.

The Restroom is not the issue as i have said elsewhere in this thread nobody is naked in a restroom Not even Larry Craig.

Take care
Sue

Waymon your comments to me i have found Not to be offensive Bear on the other hand in his usual heavy handed way managed to offend me the Testosterone related comment was directed directly at him, and i make no apologies for it. You I and everyone else have discussed these issues with a civil tone and in a respectful way. I don't like being bullied degraded or called names any more then anybody else the only difference is i won't tolerate it from anybody Even Cops.

If we don't explore people's feelings on subjects like this we cannot expect to grow and make our lives and those around us better.

Sleep well and have pleasant dreams.
I shall be doing the same soon i have a cold to whip and see if i can go another two years without becoming ill.

Take care
Sue

Last time I checked, restrooms have stalls and stall doors, if multiple use. Very few jobs, as a percentage of the employed workplace, require showers in a community shower facility. A law can be worded to require the T employee to be given use of a private shower, allowed to shower at home instead,
given a private time to shower, etc. It is also possible to place privacy stalls in open shower rooms.

As usual, the Religious Reich's argument is a canard. The bathroom and shower issues can be easily overcome.

That phrase "Not my shower" is so uber-possessive.

Good point, Alex. It's gone from "in your daughter's shower" to "my shower." This isn't so much about protecting innocent little girls (who are almost always segregated from adults to start with), but their own uncomfortable feelings around trans folks.

A few questions for Sue - who really knows how to drive up a comment thread.

It boils down to this for me, Sue... When you say things like...

A ladies locker room is no place for Man and if you have male genitals you are a Man end of story.

It makes me realize how simplistic your world view is. By this same standard, you're not a woman either - as much as you like to claim you are a post-op woman it doesn't meet the standards. You were born with male genitals. You are a man - end of story. Now, you may have had your penis cut off, but that still wouldn't make you a man - no matter your sly attempt to muddy the water with "Do you currently have gonads or not" red herring. According to your logic, you still wouldn't be a woman - you'd be a man with his willy and balls cut off. That would make a eunich at best and a deformation at worst - not a woman.

But when you also say things like:

Lets examine some facts;
100% of the reported rapes in the last 2 years were men raping women.

then I know you're full of shit and just pulling arguments out of your ass to try and make a point. This obviously made up statistic is proof that you're just trying to argue without bothering to make some sort of rational thought. Prove it. I'll bet you $50 that you can't. Know how? Just the other day here in Indianapolis there was a man-on-man rape reported. I've been raped - and I'm not a woman.

So when you say things like "100%... were men raping women," and you completely attempt to nullify my experience of having my head stuck in a mop bucket while three huge drug crazed street folks brutally fucked me, sodomized me with a broom handle and beat me with it? Then the only words I have to say is:

"Fuck you."

Because not only are you offensive to the trans folk with your story, you're offensive to me with your attempts to gloss over the rest of us with your own inane bullshit.

Oh, dear. Once again the debate about sex/gender/genitalia focuses solely on MTF people. If a person with a penis is a man, what about we FTMs who have vaginas and pee through female urethras, usually sitting down, but have facial hair and deep voices and pass as 100% male? Hmmm? Should we all go into the Ladies room because of our genitalia? Or risk scaring the men by using the stall in the gents? It never ceases to amaze me how MTFs blithely ignore the issues of FTMs when talking about trans issues just like the "regular" folks.

Bil
When you combine two different items I have said and use them both out of context it is just as good as putting words in my mouth. This tactic I thought was one that the religious right owned. So start off by apologizing for putting words in my mouth and I won’t remind you this really doesn’t concern a Gay Man, This is a matter for Females. Thank you. Also keep in mind this issue deals with MEN not Transwomen. There can always be accommodations made for Transwomen. Let also take the chance to remind you this is about physical sex not gender….

Now that we have established the ground rules again for this discussion…. I will move on to your next statement.

Before you go saying I am not a woman let me clue you in a little fact. I am an XXY Female. DON’T pull that sexual judge and jury stuff on me. I can see that your view of biological sexuality is rather simplistic in itself. You really should do your homework regarding intersex issues I am even embarrassed to be reading this comment of yours because it is so un like you to be this unknowledgeable.

If you don’t like my facts regarding sexual assault and rape then dispute them with your own facts don’t call me names. Name calling is the last resort of a man who has no leg to stand on.

I am sorry you might think I am full of it…
That is your right it is even your right to use the language you have been using. You know and that is fine The Post Transition females I know all agree with me and nearly all the Non-Ops do also.

I still have yet to see the lesbian identified females (not F2M’s) comment on this story…

I know exactly what they would say if they did.

Lets all hope this ordinance gets a good rewriting that would make both Natal Females and Transwomen happy.

Take care
Sue

I want to take a moment and thank everyone for their comments on this story. I am going to be writing a peace in my column in the Neutral Corner newsletter on this ordinance.

For those who don't know what Neutral corner is; we are a support and social group for TS/TG women here in San Diego Founded in 1979 and incorporated in 1982 Neutral is the oldest TG/TS support group and the only TG/TS Non Profit in San Diego. We have jsut over 75 dues paying members which include TG/TS women mental health professionals and service providers.

Thank y'all for your input and insight into this somewhat volitile issue.

Take care
Susan Robins
President Neutral Corner.

Sue,

So basically you are saying (paraphrase).

"Don't bother arguing with me because I already know how everyone will respond?"

Sue-

I'm actually don't think Bil was putting words in your mouth at all. You did say some very offensive things about gay men not understanding sexual crimes, all rapes being male on female, "male genitals=man", and other things.

When you say controversial, and sometimes mean-spirited things, expect hard push back. Many gay men, myself and Bil included, understand the issue of sexual assault and rape all too well. So don't presume to make up facts and make broad statements without consequences. Along those same lines, Bil was not playing judge with you about your own gender identification; he was simply using some of your comments and logic to show you how narrow your views of gender are and how what you have said would apply to you.

I also think the "everyone I know" argument that you use is weak and invalid. I can say the same thing, but it doesn't make it true.

You seem very sure of what everyone would say on this issue if they commented, but you are actually the only one saying it.

And please stop invalidating the comments and opinions of anyone that does not fit into your idea of "woman". It is insulting to our readers and not appropriate.

I like the fact that we can have open discussion here on the Project. While you may feel that this particular issue may not affect the gay men on the site, I would completely disagree. Gender identity protections affect us all. This post is about gender, not genitalia. Gender is something we can all relate to and have views on. By coming together and discussing these issues, our community is finding common ground and common experiences, which make us all stronger in our fight for equality and rights.

Let's just get something "straight"...

Now that we have established the ground rules again for this discussion….

You don't make the rules here, Sue. I do. When your name is in the blog title, you can make the rules.

your right i don't make the rules Bil.

A little constructive criticism if i may...

You really do need some sensitivity training regarding intersex people.

It is so sad to see you fall back on the
"and your a man" agruement when you have no idea what my medical history is.

Thankfully i am not the one beating the political correctness bully pulpit.

Have a nice day
Try to be more accepting of those you do not understand.

Sue

Waymon
I guess what bothers me most about this whole thread.
is that in spite that accommodations can be made for transwomen there are still people who feel justified in standing up for an ordinance that allows non trans identified men in a woman's locker room.

That is an invasion of woman's/ female spaces and shows a certain selfishness on the part of those who would stand for such a ordinance.

People have a certain right to privacy even in public settings.

You have been respectful in your comments Waymon and clear in your message. Given this is such a touchy subject (there is a term i would use however someone here may find it offensive that describes this subject even better)
Take care

Sue

Okay stick a fork in me because i am done.

OK so I read through most of these comments, and am very disturbed by Sue's apparent willingness to speak for all "women born women," make assumptions about gay men, etc etc etc

so with all due respect Sue - you do not know what I think nor should you presume to generalize about lesbians or anyone else. Haven't we at least learned that in our very diverse community??

I respect your opinion Sue but also strongly and respectfully disagree, as a woman who is - to say the least - gender non-conforming. I've been yelled at enough times going into the ladies room ("hey - that's the ladies room!") enough times to understand that the reaction is not because they think I am going to attack them but that I am "breaking the rules"

Let's be clear about what this ridiculous web site and campaign are about: it is a fear mongering tactic by bigots to curtail the rights of anyone who does not fit into the neat little boxes of male and female, particulary transgender people. And they are clearly able to have the same impact on folks like Sue as they do on their target audience of parents, teachers, etc in the general public

a few points:

there are - to the best of my knowledge - never been any incidents of any trans-person (pre or post op) attacking or targeting anyone in a bathroom

if someone wants to assault or rape a women a bathroom is not the only place to do it and a sign on the door that says "women" probably won't stop them anyway

I have in fact been in situations where a person I assumed - correctly - to be a MTF woman, approached a airport bathroom with some trepidation. I could see it in her eyes and decided to do the right thing - i walked up to her and said - "hey, I have to go, too, we'll make a cute couple" and we strode right in, getting a few looks but with all the privacy we needed in the stalls

ok - about the showers - I am finding more and more that gyms, schools, locker rooms etc are moving toward private stalls and a curtain, because people simply want privacy and frankly, a threat can come from anyone - gay, straight, female, male, whatever.....some schools even have security guards in the bathrooms and locker rooms to monitor behavior, so this is really a red herring

Cathy

Confession time.

I used the womens locker room at my gym when I was pre-op.

I know, I know. I should have been tarred and feathered. Apparently I showed superhuman restraint to keep from attacking the other occupants (the little brain controls ALL).

Apparently I was at risk of sexually assaulting women (sexual orientation be damned).

You know what? Nothing happened? I locked up my bag (gym rules, no bags on the gym floor), used the restroom and went on my way. I didn't ogle the women that were changing (that would be rude). On the times when I needed to change clothes, I used a toilet stall (I wasn't the only one).

When I went with friends that knew of my pre-op status they didn't freak out. They didn't act any differently because I was there. They did not appear to feel threatened.

I was not required to check in with the business. I did not have to wear a special badge.

If someone behaves badly in public, they should be held accountable. I don't think there is a need to pre-convict people based on crimes that they haven't commited.

"there are still people who feel justified in standing up for an ordinance that allows non trans identified men in a woman's locker room."

Sue-

No one has stood up for that at all. This whole post is about TG people having the same access to public spaces. You were actually the one to bring up the "if you have male genitals you are a Man end of story" issue in this thread.

The rest of us have simply been arguing that regardless of your genitals, people shouldn’t be discriminated against or demonized (like the "not my shower" group does) because of their gender identity.

Can we just stop for a second at comment #64 and note that, if nothing else, Sue Robins is a total badass for being personally responsible for skyrocketing this comment count into the dozens?

Is there really anyone else that could sustain a 1 vs. 6 person arguement for 24 straight hours?

I agree, Nick. God bless her stamina and rather controversial comments.

And here I thought this was going to be just a quick little post about an annoying hate group...

:)

First Sue, your premise is flawed on its face. You seem to be equating successful SRS with a passable gendered appearance. As we both know, the two may coincide in the same transperson, but by no means does one mandate or prohibit the other.

In my own case, I do pretty well in terms of passability, but I have not had surgery as it is cost-prohibitive for me. Does that make me less of a woman? No, what it makes me is pre or non-operative, nothing more, and nothing less. The "biology is destiny" argument is not only rabidly anti-feminist, but also flies directly in the face of our own life experiences as transpeople, and, not incidentially, the life experiences of LGB people as well.

This is the biggest problem I have with the bathroom issue in general. It's totally blown out of proportion. For one thing, no one's fretting over born men having to share a bathroom or locker room with transmen (at least not that I've heard) other than perhaps some transmen themselves. On the other hand, everyone is all a-flutter about the possibility of born women having to share facilities with transwomen.

I defy anyone, including you Sue, to give me one provable example of a male sexual predator dressing up as a woman and using trans-inclusive anti-discrimination laws in order to get access to the ladies room and commit some kind of sexual attack. It just doesn't happen. It's every bit as much a bigoted scare tactic as the shower thing.

The vast majority of transwomen I know aren't going to be putting themselves on display in a locker room situation unless they absolutely have no choice, and the fact is that there's almost always a choice...we know it, most straight folks who understand what a transperson is know it (hence the 60-70% level of support for trans rights in the workplace, despite the HRC/DNC/GOP anti-trans bigot brigade), and anyone in the approximately 50% of Americans who live in areas where trans rights are protected in the US who's ever had to deal with such a situation knows it.

The sexual predators in the bathroom thing is a red herring, just as it is in the case of Larry Craig. It's making assumptions about Queer people's sexual proclivities based on things which have little or no actual impact on such desires. It's hatemongering and bigotry of the first order.

It's not common sense, and it's not even common belief anymore. What it is is political gamesmanship practiced by HRC, Frank, Kennedy, Smith, Pelosi, Miller, and others who seek to play on the discomfort with one group of persecuted Americans in order to make it more politically palatable to pass rights for wealthier, more politically potent groups to help fill Democratic coffers with donations and the polls with Democratic voters.

And guess what Sue? You're falling for it, along with every other American who buys into the idea that the presence or absence of a certain body part determines if that person is a likely threat or not.

This argument is crap, it's always been crap, and it will always be crap. Let's finally get our heads out of this 1950's kind of thinking, and start addressing the real issues of transpeople, like the youth of our movement already have.

It's time this movement and the people in it started looking to the possibilities of the future instead of wallowing in the bigotries of the past.

"Think about the absurdity of this thread so far.
Not one Borne Female has commented on it. Streight Lesbian or otherwise. For them it is a No Brain'r"

Sue, you can't talk about all female-born-womyn with such broad strokes. We're not all the same, just as all trans people aren't the same.

I'm chiming into the convo a bit late in the game and quite frankly, I'm too busy to read all 66 comments ahead of me. So if I'm repeating something, please forgive me.

I'm female-bodied and I don't have a problem with anyone who identifies as a womyn using the womyn's restroom and/or locker room. Quite frankly, when I'm changing out in the locker room, I'm too busy to pay attention to what anyone else is doing. I've got a life. And it doesn't revolve around inspecting other people's business.

And before you drum up the safety issue, Sue, I am also a rape survivor. And I choose to live my life without allowing the fear of sexual assault to control where I pee or where I get dressed.

This is all a red herring. How many of us use mixed-sex restrooms at the gay bars? Raise your hands everyone, because you know you do. Am I more likely to be assaulted at a gay bar, then? Because by Sue's logic, I would.

Also, womyn can sexually assault other womyn, and men can sexually assault other men. It's a fact our community is hesitant to admit, but it's true. But I'm not going to live my life afraid of sexual predators jumping out from behind the bushes.

Stop drinking the haterade, Sue. Just because you managed to pull yourself up by the proverbial bootstraps, it doesn't give you the right to pass judgement on others and tell them where they can and can't go.

OK, I'm off to class. Ya'll have a beautiful (and hopefully pervert-free) day!

Serena - I commented as a transman which, in Sue's eyes, makes me a woman-born-woman. But I get your point!

"Stop drinking the haterade"

Serena, I think I love you. :)

Rebecca, you hit the nail on the head with your comment (#66).