Marti Abernathey

With Apologies to Radical Feminists

Filed By Marti Abernathey | January 24, 2008 6:53 AM | comments

Filed in: Marriage Equality, The Movement, Transgender & Intersex
Tags: Harry Benjamin Syndrome, homophobic behavior, transphobia

Recently, I commented on a post at Bilerico:

You want to get technical Sue? In the strictest definition, you're not female. The distinction between the "sexes" is that a female has the ability to produce ova, and the male has the ability to produce produces sperm. Your "sex" isn't based on an organ but on your reproductive ability. For that matter, your neo-vagina isn't even an "organ." An organ is tissue or a group of tissues that constitute a morphologically and functionally distinct part of an organism. Your "vagina" isn't a social construct, it's a surgical construct. And an incomplete construct at that! Go find your bartholin glands....

And in the above scenario, the woman wasn't afraid of genitals, but because of other physical characteristics. It's more about passing privilege than genital configuration. And judging from the pictures I've seen of you, ya got your own passing issues. So you might want to jump off that high horse of yours.

Pretty strong statement eh? I said this in response to Sue Robins, who said:

A ladies locker room is no place for Man and if you have male genitals you are a Man end of story.


You can think what you want regarding gender but we are talking about physical sex. Gender is the straw man in this discussion.

Gender is between your ears but what you have in your pants is all about sex, not gender.

I have to ask you how is it possible for someone in a woman's locker room to tell the difference between a man who is pervert or worse yet shopping for a rape victim from a Pre-Op TS?

How are women in that locker room suppose to know the difference?
How are suppose to be insured that locker room is safe if someone with male genitals is let in?

You seem to want to make this about gender when it is really about Sex. Need i remind you Gender is a state of being Not a social construct not an organ but a state of being most likely brought about by by brain chemistry. We are talking about sex here Penis and Vagina kind of sex, and how the majority of vagina people feel unsafe when penis people are watching them undress. This is because the biology of the majority of penis people gets out of hand when they see naked vagina people.

If you could find a way to sort out the perverts from the Pre-Ops i would be all for allowing them into that woman's space.

Sue is what many people in the transgender community would call a "Harry Benjamin Syndrome" apologist. Those of you who don't frequent transgender blogs or forums may have never heard of "Harry Benjamin Syndrome." According to Harry Benjamin Syndrome Informational Resource:

Harry Benjamin Syndrome (HBS) is an intersex condition, which develops in the early stages of pregnancy and affects the process of sexual differentiation. What occurs is that the brain develops as one sex, but the body takes on the appearance and characteristics of the other sex. The difference between HBS and other intersex conditions is that currently there is minimal evidence of the syndrome until after the baby is born - sometimes even as late as adolescence.

The only problem with this theory is that it is just that... and an untested theory. The following is from a believer in the HBS theory:

I was lead to believe that Harry Benjamin Syndrome was backed by medical and therapy professionals as well as a widespread diagnosis. It is instead a layperson's view authored by Charlote T Guren. The medical signatures on the site are afixed to a "Transsexual Resarch" document not an HBS one. The Standards of Care borrowed from HBIGDA are not a medical care document as one is lead to believe. One wonders if permission was obtained to use Harry Benjamin's name. HBS IS NOT MEDICALLY APPROVED or an offically medically accepted diagnosis as of yet.

She explained her experience with the HBS crowd saying:

What I learned had little to do with HBS. It instead turned out to be an anti-GLBT group. People who asked simple questions and needed support, were diagnosed by militant members as being transgendered, perverts and fetishists. Gays and lesbians were also denigrated with frequent slurs. In fact those who did support GLBT rights were banned simply for supporting them.

On my own site, Transadvocate.com, three advocates of HBS routinely sidetrack posts that have nothing to do with HBS. You can see examples of the derailing here, here, and here. The kind of rhetoric that is spewed is nothing short of bigoted, hateful, and disgusting. A few examples:

When you make a group of non-related or ill fitting comparisons and lump it all under a single term, there is going to be discourse and divisivness. Such is the human condition reflected in all parts of society, everywhere. Whites don't want to live in Black neighborhoods, Black's dont want to live in spanish neighborhoods, the asians only hire other asians, the germans kill the jews and the jews kill the arabs and the arabs kill the hostages and that is the news.. is it any wonder the monkey's confused? - Leigh

The trans blogs are not going to all of a sudden promote standing up for those issues unique to transsexuals, much less those of us who are post op. They are not going to abandon their crossdressing "brothers and sisters" and recognize the transgender umbrella for the homosexual construct it is. Certainly they are not about to disasociate themselves from the homosexual movement and will no doubt continue to support the GLB in their ultimate quest, same-sex marriage. They will continue to support the concept of a gender spectrum, the legitimacy of a non-op, and nondiscrimination for all who present an alternate gender expression. Sadly, they will also sit dumbfounded, incapable of understanding why one doesn't want to share a bathroom with someone of the opposite sex, or go to work everyday in the presence of crossdressers. - Susan

But then we strike at the very heart of what the GLB & T marriage was always about. It is to show to society that gays and lesbians are NORMAL in comparisson to the fruits and flakes encompassing the T part of the federation. The transgenders are the pawns in a wider game of chess and you all swallowed it down and ate it up, just as they wanted you to. Your nothing more than cannon fodder on the battlefield of gay rights, and once they have what they came for, you will be standing outside looking through the window while they ignore your very existance. - Leigh

You may wonder about why I chose the title "With Apologies to Radical Feminists." These HBS advocates are the epitome of what radical feminists deplore. They are the "advance agents of the Patriarchy" that Janice Raymond spoke of. They seek to solidify and protect the gender binary.

I responded to Sue so strongly because at the core, defining who is a woman by what genitals they have is a form of bondage. If the goal is gender parity/equality, it will only happen when the gender binary is liberated from biology. When a man can have a vagina and a woman can have a penis. When a person with a penis can be feminine and a person with a vagina can be masculine.

My friend, Gwen Smith said it best:

You see, by challenging these notions of gender, difficult as this may be, we may well secure a world where one can choose their presentation -- even if it is within a clearly defined gender. We all can win when the rules are relaxed.

Even if I am not the most gender fluid being on the planet, I can applaud those who are, who are willing to transcend those places they've been told to be. More than this, those who are pushing through boundaries challenge me to do more, to explore deeper into myself and consider my own views of gender. That's a challenge I remain up for.

So to this fellow traveler I came across in transit, I salute you. It is you who keep us all moving forward.


Recent Entries Filed under Transgender & Intersex:

Leave a comment

We want to know your opinion on this issue! While arguing about an opinion or idea is encouraged, personal attacks will not be tolerated. Please be respectful of others.

The editorial team will delete a comment that is off-topic, abusive, exceptionally incoherent, includes a slur or is soliciting and/or advertising. Repeated violations of the policy will result in revocation of your user account. Please keep in mind that this is our online home; ill-mannered house guests will be shown the door.


Well Marti, it seems you are the one to air the "transgender" dirty laundry on a GLBT blog. An interesting tack to claim those with women's bodies and neurology are agents of the patriarchy while those innocent people keeping the very badge of masculinity, a penis, are the women and victims here, especially given your savaging of Susan Stanton. I shall be fascinated to see the responses to this.

Your quote to Sue was an open refutation of the womanhood of a woman who went through hell to be true to her own womanhood by denying it outright and even attacking her looks. As a long time feminist I have to tell you it doesn't get much more patriarchal than that. The issue at hand, for those who didn't follow this nonsense, was transgendered "women" with penises not in public restrooms, but in women's dressing rooms and showers. Sue's comment were specific to that. The insistence on the rights of male bodied people to be in these spaces is a pretty hard sell to a mostly bi-gendered world. The insistence that transgenders get to identify women of transsexual history by terms they reject is another.

Almost every woman of transsexual history I've ever met, and I've met well over a hundred in person and have contact with many more, objects strongly to being placed in the "transgender" category. The idea is a simple one, we had a problem, being born with a female neurology in a male body, we deal with it through transition and surgery and we then wish to live our lives thereafter as women. We do NOT wish to be pawns in the transgender movement that claims us as part of their community against our wishes. R-E-S-P-E-C-T........that's what it means to me.

The term transgender(ed) was coined by the rabid transsexual-phobic Charles "Virginia" Prince and his intention was to specifically exclude transsexual women in transition and afterwards from this term. Given the history of the term and the rather obvious fact that a transsexual person's gender does not "trans" or change but rather is constant and hence the need to fix the body to conform to that gender, it's being used as almost the equivalent of transsexual is quite insulting when those transsexual people are not given the minimal respect of opting out of the category.

I'm betting that most non-transgenders will be able to see that transgender claims they are just like transsexuals only they didn't have to
transition
have surgery to make their bodies conform to male, female norms
lose careers
lose family
lose friends
etc. for what it is, admitting they are nothing like them at all.

You may now do your infamous explosion vitriol on me you've done so many times in the past when I was still able to present the opposition viewpoint within trans-civil rights spaces........I've been banned from most of them just for saying this.

I just finished writing a piece on HBS and Women Born Transsexuals (WBT,) if you care to read it? Some of your comments in May of last year and Gwen's comments were talked about.

Monica

Speaking of sidetracking You owe me an apology Marti
For calling an XXY Female a man.
You get all bent out of shape when i accidentally call you sir.

Actually Janice Raymond was writing about the TG community, TS folk don't go bullying people with their male privilege, they can't they left it behind.

Have a nice day
And i am waiting for that apology you owe me.

Sue

MauraHennessey | January 24, 2008 10:21 AM

Ms Abernathy;
The original post was about use of showers and locker rooms. In the end it finally turned into a duel over the validity of the claim of post op transsexuals to be women. I will enter my two pence on the subject only because it effects me as a lesbian and effects a member of our group, a lesbian-identified woman of operative history.

Our group is a collection of women, all of whom are lesbians, who get together every few weeks for dinner, drinks and chat. Our commonality is our love for women and our all holding positions in various professions.

The woman whom I spoke of in the first paragraph is a professional. She is engaged to be married to one of the other members of the group but must do so outside of the United States because, as a woman, she cannot be married to her partner here. I have watched her share all of the social and financial discomfitures of being a woman and being a lesbian. She has been honest and forthcoming in acknowledging that of her previous life, she misses male priviledge the most but accepts it's loss as the cost of living the life that she now has. Not one of us thinks of her as anything less than a woman, and if we reflect upon it at all, we see her as a woman with a remarkable history. Occasionally, she will laugh when we are discussing childhood issues and ask her if she too made horriffic outfits for a favourite doll as a first experiment in sewing, prefacing the question to her with "when you were a little girl.."

She is one of our number and has even appeared on television as a spokeperson for lesbian rights. Others, though, will not grant her the status that she has earned. There are groups of lesbian feminists of our own ages that exclude her as a "constructed" woman. Our position is that she has paid for her place at our table. There is nothing male about her, but she tells us that much of the characteristics that we are familiar with came from experience after her surgery, that one is not a woman from surgery but from experience, from socialisation of you will.

Once, when the lot of us were talking about the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival, she made what I thought was a most telling statement. She was asked if she would go, since she could clearly do so without problem. Her reply suprised me. "If I am the woman that I seem to be and appear to be, then as a woman I should have empathy for the comfort and desire of other women to define a space for themselves." She went on to describe the desire to use the forced acquiescence of the women of the festival as manipulatively utilising them for validation of trans-womanhood and the very intrusiveness of such a method as inherently male.

The locker room and shower issues are about the comfort of women, soemthing that other women should have empathy for. Whatever an ideal egalitarian society should be, at this moment in American feminist cultural development women lack comfort dressing and showering with anatomically male genitalia close in the same space.

My friend changed our attitudes by accepting the attituddes we had when she met us, rather than trying to force us to embrace attitudes that she thought that we should have.

In the end, every LGBT battle is won one heart and mind at a time.

Cathryn;
it just shows the level of bigotry that exists in the transgender community toward TS and intersex people. it's funny how they cling to their male privlage so tightly. It shows so strongly in Marti's comments on the loclerroom post and here.

What is really sad is Marti represents only a small part of the transgender community and with such a voice gives them a bad name.

Take care
Sue

Marti,
One of the things I stated in my article is that as soon as one of "them" (giggle) sees negative articles against WBT and HBS, they are Johanne-on-the-spot with their hateful comments and BS. They just cannot resist. As was stated in "A Few Good Men" (no pun intended,) "You can't stand the truth!"

As you can see, it's already started here. I likened it to them coming out of their holes and sweeping down on their victims like the creatures in "Pitch Black." You're a tough woman.

Monica

An interesting tack to claim those with women's bodies and neurology are agents of the patriarchy while those innocent people keeping the very badge of masculinity, a penis, are the women and victims here, especially given your savaging of Susan Stanton. I shall be fascinated to see the responses to this.

Transmen keep their "badge of womanhood", are they still women?

Your quote to Sue was an open refutation of the womanhood of a woman who went through hell to be true to her own womanhood by denying it outright and even attacking her looks

Her own womanhood? You mean the surgery to get her neo-vagina? And I didn't attack her looks, I simply stated truth.

As a long time feminist I have to tell you it doesn't get much more patriarchal than that. The issue at hand, for those who didn't follow this nonsense, was transgendered "women" with penises not in public restrooms, but in women's dressing rooms and showers. Sue's comment were specific to that. The insistence on the rights of male bodied people to be in these spaces is a pretty hard sell to a mostly bi-gendered world. The insistence that transgenders get to identify women of transsexual history by terms they reject is another.

Apparently you missed the part where she said if you have a penis, you're a man.

Almost every woman of transsexual history I've ever met, and I've met well
over a hundred in person and have contact with many more, objects strongly
to being placed in the "transgender" category. The idea is a simple one,
we had a problem, being born with a female neurology in a male body, we
deal with it through transition and surgery and we then wish to live our
lives thereafter as women. We do NOT wish to be pawns in the transgender
movement that claims us as part of their community against our wishes.
R-E-S-P-E-C-T........that's what it means to me.

Well then fly away little birdie!

I'm betting that most non-transgenders will be able to see that transgender claims they are just like transsexuals only they didn't have to transition have surgery to make their bodies conform to male, female norms lose careers lose family lose friends etc. for what it is, admitting they are nothing like them at all.

I'm transsexual, and transgender and I've lost quite a bit. If a HBS girl claims I'm nothing like them, I'll wear that like a badge of honor.

You may now do your infamous explosion vitriol on me you've done so many times in the past when I was still able to present the opposition viewpoint within trans-civil rights spaces........I've been banned from most of them just for saying this.

Oh, sweet Cathy, we both know how dishonest your comment is, don't we? I don't need to explode. I'm so beyond your firebombing. While you were hiding out in the Catskills, I've been out here actually working for the community. While you causing drama at C-house, I was in Washington DC. Your path of destruction is famous. The words that come out of your mouth spew vitriol right back at you. I don't need to do anything but sit back and let you speak.

Speaking of sidetracking You owe me an apology Marti For calling an XXY Female a man.
You get all bent out of shape when i accidentally call you sir.

I didn't call anyone a man.

Actually Janice Raymond was writing about the TG community, TS folk don't go bullying people with their male privilege, they can't they left it behind.

Um...no..it wasn't called "Transgender Empire".....

And i am waiting for that apology you owe me.

Good luck with that.

We have a guest post coming up soon that also takes on your quote, Marti. The post also features several of the commenters on your post, I believe.

I had no idea that trans politics was so damn complicated. Honestly. I know this is a hot topic and bound to get heated, but I hope everyone keeps in mind that you're speaking to a bigger audience than just the trans community. A lot of us don't know the inside out of trans issues so be respectful please and don't get bogged down in personal bs the rest of us don't know about (or care about, honestly).

Cathryn, we have yet to ban a single commenter. (Although a couple have come darn close!) Please don't be our first. Just read the rules below and you'll be fine.

Thanks for joining the discussion at The Bilerico Project! Please be respectful of others. We reserve the right to delete a comment that is off-topic, abusive, uses excessive foul language, is exceptionally incoherent, includes a homophobic, racist, sexist or other slur or is soliciting and/or advertising.

Cathryn; it just shows the level of bigotry that exists in the transgender community toward TS and intersex people. it's funny how they cling to their male privlage so tightly. It shows so strongly in Marti's comments on the loclerroom post and here.

What is really sad is Marti represents only a small part of the transgender community and with such a voice gives them a bad name.

What, are you claiming that I'm the perpetrator of transsexual on transsexual hate? Because while I'm transgender, I'm also a transsexual. One that's been around the block enough to know hate when I see it.

I'm transsexual, and transgender and I've lost quite a bit. If a HBS girl claims I'm nothing like them, I'll wear that like a badge of honor.

Well Marti using the same criteria you used on me Technically your not transsexual, you haven't changed your physical sex. You are however transgender.

and actually you did call me a man by calling me male. Now i know you would rather split hairs and deny that you did however you in fact did.

Monica Why not post a link to your blog we all would like to see.

Both of you, Marti and Monica are doing a good job of showing the true colors of the extremist elements of the transgender community. Your hatrid of those of us who did something about our birth defect, your jealously of the fruits of our hard work and the bigotry you represent are coming out in full force here.

and to think you not only have the Balls to call yourselves activists for the community but you have the Balls to call yourselves transsexuals.

Keep it up let the LGB communities see the true colors of the "Transgender leadership" The intersex community has known what you people are really like for some time now.

Sue


What, are you claiming that I'm the perpetrator of transsexual on transsexual hate? Because while I'm transgender, I'm also a transsexual. One that's been around the block enough to know hate when I see it.

You have done just that...

Keep it up your making friends and influencing people.

Sue
Proud NOT to be Transgender.

I am, at this very moment, making sure I have dotted all of my "i's" before I send it out to cross some "T's." Marti may want to post it on her blog later.

Monica

Hope everyone keeps in mind that you're speaking to a bigger audience than just the trans community. A lot of us don't know the inside out of trans issues so be respectful please and don't get bogged down in personal bs the rest of us don't know about.

Seconded.

I'm definitely more confused than when this conversation started. Trying to keep up though...

Well Monica Don't forget to post a link to your blog here.

The larger community wants to see it.


Sue

I hope that this isn't, as Cathryn said, airing dirty laundry out on an LGBT blog. Like, yeah, I guess it technically is, but we have posts here about gay issues (like STD's, sex) where trans folks participate in the comments and posts about lesbian culture where everyone participates in the comments, etc.

I just mentioned that to Bil this morning what he said in his comment - before I started working on this site (since the relaunch), I had no idea the T in LGBT had such complicated internal politics. But then again lesbians do, bisexuals do, and gay men definitely do. And I can see a lot of gay men "airing their dirty laundry" on this site even though we have a large non-gay-male readership.

On the apology, Sue, well, you did say right off the bat on Waymon's post that pre/non-op transwomen were men, and I believe that included a few of the ladies reading that post. If you can't take it then maybe you shouldn't dish it....

Well Marti using the same criteria you used on me Technically your not transsexual, you haven't changed your physical sex. You are however transgender.

Um... no, that logic doesn't stand to reason, since transsexuality is a medical term, and I've been diagnosed by my therapist and my medical doctor with transsexualism..

and actually you did call me a man by calling me male. Now i know you would rather split hairs and deny that you did however you in fact did.

As I said before, what about transmen. They have vagina's are they really just faking it? There's a big difference between being male and being a man.

Both of you, Marti and Monica are doing a good job of showing the true colors of the extremist elements of the transgender community. Your hatrid of those of us who did something about our birth defect, your jealously of the fruits of our hard work and the bigotry you represent are coming out in full force here.

I think you're looking in the mirror, because you'll find that most transpeople support tolerance instead of some relative bar that you set on who is a man and who is a woman.

and to think you not only have the Balls to call yourselves activists for the community but you have the Balls to call yourselves transsexuals.

No Sue, other people call us activists, because they see us DOING things...it's the act part of activism.

Keep it up let the LGB communities see the true colors of the "Transgender leadership" The intersex community has known what you people are really like for some time now.

They see us, because we work side by side with them.

I don't have a blog . . . yet. I'm trying to set one up at this time.

Alex you said..

On the apology, Sue, well, you did say right off the bat on Waymon's post that pre/non-op transwomen were men, and I believe that included a few of the ladies reading that post. If you can't take it then maybe you shouldn't dish it....

Show me because you are mistaken.

Sue

Alex i just checked..
I happen to have a link to that thread on my desktop as i have been drawing from it for the article i am writing for the NC newsletter.

I said No Such Thing good luck trying to find quote that doesn't exist.

Sue

I don't know why, but here goes:

A ladies locker room is no place for Man and if you have male genitals you are a Man end of story.

It's my understanding that pre/non-op transwomen "have male genitals", so then you were calling them "a Man end of story."

Well Alex taken out of context as usual.

Sue

No no no no no no no no no no no (can you tell I'm latino? lol)

You can't say that it was taken out of context and that's it. It spurred an 8-some-odd comment discussion there, that one line, and two other posts here today.

If it was taken out of context, please explain the context in which it was meant. That can go a long way to healing some feelings, I think.

Well Alex here is the whole post.
While you might object to the language there are women's spaces where Pre-Ops don't belong and
a ladies locker room is one such place.

I was surprised to see this on Marti's site and not reposted here.

As both a member of the female half of society and
a former the TG/TS communities i could not imagine
ever setting foot into a women's locker room
with male genitals. To do so is such an in your face act and boldly offensive in my opinion.

we don't dwell on bathroom issues here, which i find a relief from certain "activists" who are obsessed with the bathroom. with that said there is an unwritten code of conduct for transwomen when it comes to their place in women's spaces.

Transwomen are allowed in those spaces on the condition they behave in accordance with the customs women abide by in those spaces. If they cannot abide by those customs then they are ether outed or asked to leave. Nearly all Pre-Ops and TG 's know better then to enter a women's locker room they usually make suitable accommodations and avoid that women's space until they are Post-Op and legally female.

A ladies locker room is no place for Man and if you have male genitals you are a Man end of story.

Take care
Sue

Respectfully;

in it's proper context next time.
Thank you in advance.

Take care
Sue


"Context?", Sue? You said it. Period.

I called you out on it. Marti called you out too... In fact, my response was pretty similar to Marti's...

It boils down to this for me, Sue... When you say things like...

A ladies locker room is no place for Man and if you have male genitals you are a Man end of story.

It makes me realize how simplistic your world view is. By this same standard, you're not a woman either - as much as you like to claim you are a post-op woman it doesn't meet the standards. You were born with male genitals. You are a man - end of story. Now, you may have had your penis cut off, but that still wouldn't make you a man - no matter your sly attempt to muddy the water with "Do you currently have gonads or not" red herring. According to your logic, you still wouldn't be a woman - you'd be a man with his willy and balls cut off. That would make a eunich at best and a deformation at worst - not a woman.

There's nothing wrong with calling you out on faulty logic. You can try to spin it away by calling it "out of context" if you'd like, but that doesn't change a darn thing.

In fact, looking back - wasn't that the reason the post got so many comments? You went for the shock and awe comment and got push back? It's too late to try and save face now!

Well Bil Say what you like I stand by what i have said. I can't help it if you are unable to see the sound logic in what i have said because the vast majority of my fellow females do see that logic.

The only thing holding back the transgender rights movement is their "activists".


Take care
Sue

I'm going to cross-breed these two threads. :)

I posted this in response to Cathryn on Mercedes Allen's guest post. Since this thread is more active currently, can someone answer this please?

I'm confused by something you said. Seriously.

I begged repeatedly that a unified community would be much more likely to be a reality if only the community referred to it's self as transgender and transsexual because this was such a sore point with so many transsexual women.....

I don't understand how the community refers to itself then. I thought it was the transgender community?

And what's the difference between transgender and transexual? I thought transexual was just the outdated way of saying transgender. Kinda like homosexual vs gay...


Sue, I've agreed with you at times and disagreed with you at others.

I understand what you say about your personal phenotype (XXY) but at one point you did have your genitalia reconfigured (genital origami), right?

Are you saying, that before that surgery then you were a man (period)?

The term transgender(ed) was coined by the rabid transsexual-phobic Charles "Virginia" Prince and his intention was to specifically exclude transsexual women in transition and afterwards from this term.

Transsexual was a strictly medical term for the most part until about ten or so years ago. It refers to those born with literally a woman's (or man's for FtM) mind, which we know now is a neurological form of being intersexed, in the wrong body and it's the drive to correct the body through and to the fullest extent possible that defines the condition. The FtM state of surgeries is often used as a red herring, FtM's typically pursue change to the level of the practical same as MtF transsexuals do.

Again, a transsexual's gender (sense of being male or female) is consistent throughout their life and therefore is never "trans" or changed or crossed so they literally cannot be "trans-gendered".

The arguments of transsexual women was that we had people who started calling themselves non op transsexuals by choice. The word transgenderist was coined for that specific condition. There cannot be such a thing by the very definition of the word transsexual, only non ops by circumstances. It's the drive to bring body and mind into congruence that is the defining characteristic of the medical term transsexual.

There remains a stubborn refusal on the part of most transgender identified people to let transsexual people out from under their umbrella, a recent thing. They simply will not accept we do NOT want this label and have actually suffered real harm as a result of it being applied to us.

Why is it so difficult to understand that someone who pays huge prices to bring body and mind into congruence wants nothing to do with a term that attempts to drag us back into limbo gender-wise?

Women of transsexual history come in all sexual orientations, the attempts to frame them as anti-LGBT is a red herring. Many feel as I do that our rights are better pursued with the women's movement but that is NOT anti-LGBT.



Sue, I've agreed with you at times and disagreed with you at others.

I understand what you say about your personal phenotype (XXY) but at one point you did have your genitalia reconfigured (genital origami), right?

Are you saying, that before that surgery then you were a man (period)?

No as a matter of fact i have always said i was borne with a female brain and a defective body.

People like Marti who say Transsexuals are always and will always be men is based on the same flawed logic that states if you are borne deaf and your hearing is restored at any time during your life you will always be a deaf person in spite of any other factor....

What i don't understand is why do Transgenders insist on hijacking us and forcing us to belong to their identity, when in fact the vast majority of post-transition females would really rather not.

Marti or Moina Helms would you care to answer this question.

By the Way Monica I am still waiting for the link to your blog.

Thank you in advance.


Sue

> No as a matter of fact i have always said i was borne with a female brain and a defective body.

But you have also said that anyone with a man's genitals is a man. Period.

I see once again another person with selective vision....

I know quoting the whole statment as i did above is being too honest for you...

So here let me do it for you just as i did earlyer.

Well Alex here is the whole post.
While you might object to the language there are women's spaces where Pre-Ops don't belong and
a ladies locker room is one such place.

I was surprised to see this on Marti's site and not reposted here.

As both a member of the female half of society and
a former the TG/TS communities i could not imagine
ever setting foot into a women's locker room
with male genitals. To do so is such an in your face act and boldly offensive in my opinion.

we don't dwell on bathroom issues here, which i find a relief from certain "activists" who are obsessed with the bathroom. with that said there is an unwritten code of conduct for transwomen when it comes to their place in women's spaces.

Transwomen are allowed in those spaces on the condition they behave in accordance with the customs women abide by in those spaces. If they cannot abide by those customs then they are ether outed or asked to leave. Nearly all Pre-Ops and TG 's know better then to enter a women's locker room they usually make suitable accommodations and avoid that women's space until they are Post-Op and legally female.

A ladies locker room is no place for Man and if you have male genitals you are a Man end of story.

Take care
Sue

Val
You wouldn't like it if i quoted you out of context SO Please DON"T do it to me.
Thank you.

Sue


Funny thing, while I always identified as a woman, pre surgery I would not have dreamed of going into certain women's spaces out of respect of my sister women and the condition of my body. I did this when all my circle of friends at the time (all non-transanything women) pushed me hard to join their health club since it was the one activity we couldn't share and told me they wouldn't allow anyone to give me a hard time about it.

That's called respect. I may not have had a male identity, but my body was also not fully female. Maybe it's a woman thing to think this way.

You're either very strange or just not that bright if you really believe that the context shifted with that whole quote.

Here's the relevant sentence:

"A ladies locker room is no place for Man and if you have male genitals you are a Man end of story."

And yet you also claim - as do all HBS-identified women - to have been a woman even when you had male genitals. Which would not itself be quite such an eyebrow-raiser, were you not dedicated to the proposition that anyone who even nominally approves of the idea of "transgender" cannot make the same claim.

Keep trying...

Have a nice Day

Sue

We had one lesbian woman comment on almost exactly the same things I did and her comments have been pretty much ignored. I cannot help but wonder why.

Sue, please take a minute to address the concerns of the majority of the people commenting here. They are continually pointing to this line in one of your comments:

A ladies locker room is no place for Man and if you have male genitals you are a Man end of story.

Most people interpret this to mean that you believe having a penis means you are a man, no exceptions. Now you claim that just citing this quote alone removes it from its context, and it really doesn't mean that at all. Without posting your oringal comment can you please explain what you originally meant? It's obvious that just posting the quote in it's original context isn't resolving the debate.

I know it may be frustrating, but you're going to have to explain that statement in new words. And I know you have plenty of those...

Sue,
Adjust your glasses. I said I don't have a blog yet. However, the article will still see the light of day soon, in other places. It might even appear here, giving you and Cathryn a chance to make more hypocritical statements.

> We had one lesbian woman comment on almost exactly the same things I did and her comments have been pretty much ignored. I cannot help but wonder why.

Maybe because her words were clear, resonant and honest... speaking from and to the heart, rather than berating... creating and inviting conflict.

The words of women like her I always find instructive and conducive to thoughtful consideration.

The words of women like you... I do not.

We had one lesbian woman comment on almost exactly the same things I did and her comments have been pretty much ignored. I cannot help but wonder why.

It's obvious to me why her comment was not mentioned.

In the original locker room post there was a couple of comments by women who were not TG/TS and their comments were also ignored it's no mystery to me just why.

Take care
Sue


Sue, Adjust your glasses. I said I don't have a blog yet. However, the article will still see the light of day soon, in other places. It might even appear here, giving you and Cathryn a chance to make more hypocritical statements.

Be nice now.

in all honesty Monica,
You do your best work by sticking with you know Trans-Vet issues.
Have a nice day.

Sue

Women like me?
Feminist ones?
Intersexed ones?
Pagan ones?.........oh, I see ones who were stupid enough to try find common cause, ask for minimal respect and understood themselves originally as classic transsexual women.

Please direct me to where you have made an effort to find common cause.

Speaking only for myself, respect is a mutual arrangement. What will you give, if I offer you respect?

Finally, I have no problem with your understanding of yourself as a classic transsexual woman. Really. I will even go so far as to assent that you are a woman, pure and simple for all meaningful intents... though for reasons which differ from those insisted on by the HBS group.

Cathy,
Respect works both ways. It's a foriegn concept, I'm sure. You reap what you sew.

Val, Monica and Marti........I am quite aware none of you have any respect for me.......so how about stopping all the negative comments I have not returned in kind?

Well, so much for that. I like how you turn aside that which you demand.

Anyway, I just found this above:

>Funny thing, while I always identified as a woman, pre surgery I would not have dreamed of going into certain women's spaces out of respect of my sister women and the condition of my body.

This relates directly to the event in Virginia, where a "man in a dress" appeared at a health club and entered the women's locker room, confirming all the worst fears of people who have been so ardently oppose trans-related rights in that area.

As Autumn has reported, it seems increasingly likely that the event was a hoax perpetrated by those same antagonists.

The point being that people who rail against "transgenders" always raise that kind of spectre - in Cathy's place, apparently to claim some kind of moral authority - but the fact is that it rarely - if ever- actually happens.

The fact is that you're not that special, Cathy. *No one* I know would do such a thing, both for reasons of respect and for basic embarrassment. There is a myth that anyone who considers the idea of "transgender" to have any validity is by definition some kind of sexual exhibitionist... a myth promulgated most strongly these days by the HBS fundamentalists.

Do you take that position, Cathy? If so, then mutual respect will be much harder to come by.

http://www.bilerico.com/2008/01/transinista.php#comment-95898

To answer your question Val.....

and the right to invade such spaces is EXACTLY what has been argued here, a point I made with the first comment on this thread.

Oh, and these days I prefer Cathryn for folks I don't know and I don't know you Val....I post under that name so please use it to refer to me.

That's also called respect

"Well, so much for that. I like how you turn aside that which you demand."

SOP for HBS and WBT.

Apologies. I won't repeat the error.

I'm not sure how that comment answers my question. If its reference to your work on behalf of LGBT people is meant to infer that you are *not* as prejudicial as the HBS fundamentalists seem to be, then I will take you at your word.

As for invading spaces, let's deploy the old warhorse for a moment: where do you think that pre-operative transsexuals should pee in the course of a normal day?

I still maintain that no one I know who possesses a penis feels comfortable in a space where natal women undress.

And yet almost everyone I ever met who IDs as TG literally insists on telling you they are non-op, pre-op, a crossdresser........all ways of announcing "I might look like a woman but I have a penis" Ask yourself, why is this? When I am asked about my genitals my reply is "that is none of your business" or "how rude, let's talk about your's instead"

I'm sorry but I know no other way to take this behaviour other than sexual exhibitionist, a verbal flashing.

I have even been criticized for taking part in a national NOW convention as a feminist woman rather than some sort of trans-whatever, screamed at for it in fact.......one thing I learned over the years is that when you come to women's space as a woman, you rarely have trouble being accepted but women should not and do not welcome those who come to them not as women but as trans-whatever.......and why should they?

Sorry, I missed your "bathroom" question.......I would expect those woman identified to use the ladies room.........and conform to standard female behaviour in doing so.

> I'm sorry but I know no other way to take this behaviour other than sexual exhibitionist, a verbal flashing.

You see, I have a very different experience. From TG-identified people I usually get complete indifference to my genitals, or the only normally-intrusive "op question," and rarely do they volunteer anything further on their own part. Among transsexual fundamentalists, however - such as the HBS-identified - I see an obsession with surgical status... something I very much take as the "verbal flashing" you describe. Or more like a verbal groping.

Of course, the TG people of my acquaintance are all also transsexual. "Transgender" to them is not a political identity, but an observation of variance, loose affinity, and some expedience.

As for the bathroom question, we would appear to agree.

the original article was Never about the bathroom.
I would hate to think that there are more people as obsessed with the bathroom as Autumn Sandeen is over at Ab-Normal Heights. (the name of Sandeen's blog page)

Over the two decades i have been using the ladies room i have only come across one person who didn't want to follow customary use. He was outed and ridiculed publicly by me.

why should there be a problem if one follows the rules.


Take care
Sue

> He was outed and ridiculed publicly by me.

And there we have it, ladies and germs. The hostility and contempt laid bare.

Cathryn;
you said...

And yet almost everyone I ever met who IDs as TG literally insists on telling you they are non-op, pre-op, a crossdresser........all ways of announcing "I might look like a woman but I have a penis" Ask yourself, why is this? When I am asked about my genitals my reply is "that is none of your business" or "how rude, let's talk about your's instead"

I'm sorry but I know no other way to take this behaviour other than sexual exhibitionist, a verbal flashing.

your not the only one who feels this way, i can't count how many times i have been approached at some TG/TS event and have been assaulted with:
"Hi my name is xyz I am pre-op, what's your name and are you going to have genital surgery."

This doesn't happen at the support/social meetings i hold. The group is a lot more conservative.

jI have heard the same thing from several of my post-transition friends who have given up on the TG/TS community. They are tired of being asked questions that would not be asked in polite company.


Take care
Sue

> He was outed and ridiculed publicly by me.

And there we have it, ladies and germs. The hostility and contempt laid bare.


since you were not there and you didn't hear him say "so what"

you really don't know what went on do you.

Why don't you stop looking for opportunities to attack me and just move on.
Anybody who knowingly won't conform to how a ladies room should be used deserves to be outed.

The sad part is You Know it.
You are just looking for a reason to put people down.

Sue

I'll bear that in mind, Sue, the next time you, Susan, Leigh, Diane, or any of the rest of your crew demand that I supply a surgeon's letter, shrink's affidavit, hospital receipt and canceled plane ticket before you will acknowledge that I or anyone else is transsexual, just because they also use the word "transgender."

Thats okay Val.
Source considered...

Sue

What on earth is it with trans people and bathrooms?
In twelve years I have been told exactly twice I shouldn't use a ladies room, both times by crossdressers claiming I'd freak their wives and both wives telling me, I'm not a problem, hubby and company were. That would include a couple of times I had been outed on a job and yet no one once even thought for a second I shouldn't be using the ladies. No one ever so much as gave me a questioning look.

Having had one extremely eye opening experience a year and a half ago where two trans identified people followed me to a NOW convention, made zero attempts to appear even remotely female and thus were reminded they were in the ladies room and then they were the ones who made a loud obnoxious problem about it, I often wonder when I hear of all these bathroom problems.

I was less than six months transitioned when I was actually running ladies room interference for the butch lesbians in the crowd I hung out with. That even became the basis of a Dykes to Watch cartoon. And I am no runway model so what is going on here?

Cathryn
I am not sure what it is..
I was always taught...
When in Rome, DO as the Romans Do"

What is so hard about that?

oh well....

Sue

hmm ok interesting but sticks neck out now ladies when we call each other out please try and be a civil with one another. Slides back into the shadows to watch.

Buster Smith | January 25, 2008 12:19 AM

Hey Marti,

You don't know me. But I've been watching your rhetoric for a while. And regardless of whether I agree with a particular argument you layout or not, you seem to really know how to bring the polarization to a party.

And this post is no exception.

Admittedly I find it too exhausting to comb through all of the tangles of this thread, so I'll keep this simple.

Nope, this post isn't a "dirty laundry" post. I think it's fantastically legitimate for trans folk to hash out our internal complications within a greater community space. In fact, I encourage it because all too often it's non trans folk doing it for us, or without us.

But I do believe that you executed a grave tactical error in your approach. The HBS crew are not the enemy. Maybe at times obnoxious, insanely persistent, and well batsh** crazy blind. But, bless their souls, they know not what they do.

Maybe this was an intentional faux paus. Did you intend, out of an artistic sense of irony, to perpetrate similar violences on the HBSnoids of ye olde blogosphere as you claim they committed on others? Sure HBS is a theory. So is your understanding of gender and sex. It's all theory. That's both the reason for the pleasure and pain of it all.

There's no reason to completely invalidate the core of any individual's being. Nope. And you might have considered the number of NON-CRAZY trans folks who might, to varying degrees, find validity with HBS.

I mean, really? How productive is it to identify ANY trans person NO MATTER HOW STUPID or what tool-ish qualities they posses as the epitome of Janice Raymond? C'mon lady, I thought you were a radical revolutionary?!

There is nothing and never will be anything valid about the images or violent reflections in Raymond's sycophantic power grab.

I personally find it terribly insulting that you felt entitled to apologize for the existence of any transgender/transsexual person. I mean, does the gay community go around apologizing to the Bush administration for bug chasers in the gay mens' community?

All I have to say is thank heavens for clearheaded visionary people like Mercedes to clean up this awful mess.

Respectfully signed,

A gentile southern gay trans man

MauraHennessey | January 25, 2008 12:23 AM

I am very reluctant to enter the lion's den but on behalf of the friend that I referred to before I do want to make a brief observation.

I think that it is unfair to categorise a woman of operative history as faux, male or constructed. I was a "second wave" feminist and still hold many of the positions commonly associated with that title. Still, one woman changed my views on the validity of the concept of the "post-op lesbian" and when I hear invalidation of others like her I have an instinct to become defensive. I am reluctant to call any such a woman "male" unless they are clearly socialized and behave like one.

Similiarly, I will not describe a non-op/transgendered woman as male unless they behave as a male. I do acknowledge that they do have male genital anatomy and this is an issue in locker rooms and showers in terms of the comfort of other women.

One of the things that I respect my friend most for is her regard for the feelings and comfort of other women. Such empathy is in my experience a feminine and feminist characteristic, critical to a sense of sisterhood. Her integrity in this regard is what floored me about her and made me reconsider my attitudes as it did others in our group. We became better women, better people and better feminists because of the unique experience fo having her as part of our coterie. In the midst of the acrimony here that is something to consider.

The term transgender(ed) was coined by the rabid transsexual-phobic Charles "Virginia" Prince and his intention was to specifically exclude transsexual women in transition and afterwards from this term.

The reality is that the world isn’t interested in who coined the term. It is the given term to anyone that is gender variant.

It refers to those born with literally a woman's (or man's for FtM) mind, which we know now is a neurological form of being intersexed, in the wrong body and it's the drive to correct the body through and to the fullest extent possible that defines the condition. The FtM state of surgeries is often used as a red herring, FtM's typically pursue change to the level of the practical same as MtF transsexuals do.

There is no such thing as a "wrong" body. If you say that you have the wrong body, it be just as acceptable to say you have the "wrong" brain. There is NOTHING "wrong" with gender variance. Changing that body to be comfortable with who you feel represents you, is all about personal liberty and freedom. Your body, your choice, your decision.

Again, a transsexual's gender (sense of being male or female) is consistent throughout their life and therefore is never "trans" or changed or crossed so they literally cannot be "trans-gendered"

.

Then you're not a "trans" sexual either! Your simplistic rhetoric puts everyone in a small box and separates people based on thoughts or surgical status.

There remains a stubborn refusal on the part of most transgender identified people to let transsexual people out from under their umbrella, a recent thing. They simply will not accept we do NOT want this label and have actually suffered real harm as a result of it being applied to us.

Because most "transsexual people" are ok being under that umbrella. "Most" transsexual people realize that anyone that's gender variant will suffer in this life.

Women of transsexual history come in all sexual orientations, the attempts to frame them as anti-LGBT is a red herring. Many feel as I do that our rights are better pursued with the women's movement but that is NOT anti-LGBT.

Red herring? All the quotes I provided are from a believers in HBS.And last I checked, the National Organization for Women supports transgender inclusion...not "transsexual inclusion."

No as a matter of fact i have always said i was borne with a female brain and a defective body.

Or just as easily you could have been born with a male body and a defective brain!

People like Marti who say Transsexuals are always and will always be men is based on the same flawed logic that states if you are borne deaf and your hearing is restored at any time during your life you will always be a deaf person in spite of any other factor....

No, I'm just aware enough of reality to know that just because I cosmetically rearrange my penis, that won't change my chromosomes, my pelvic outlet, or any other biological male charachteristic that I have won't magically be changed. I'm smart enough to know that you can be male bodied and female gendered. Gender is a social construct, and as such I go through life and the world sees me as a woman, even though I was born with a male body. Your logic would only make sense if you aligned your birth sex with your gender through surgery... which makes NO sense unless it was brain surgery.

What i don't understand is why do Transgenders insist on hijacking us and forcing us to belong to their identity, when in fact the vast majority of post-transition females would really rather not.

Frankly, I'm not hijacking or forcing anyone to do anything. The reality is that you and yours aren't really doing any activism, so there's nothing to force.

I've been staying out of this one for the most part (mainly because I've been spending more time curled up under a warm blanket than in front of my computer for the last day or so), and I'm not going to go expound about who has the right to what descriptor. However, here's the short version of my take on trans self-identity (my own anyway):

I am not female, and I will not be unless and until I have surgery. I do believe I'd like to have surgery in the future, but I've intentionally held off making a firm decision one way or the other until I have the financial resources to potentially make it happen.

I'm also not, of course, a natal female, nor will I ever be, nor will anyone who begins life male-bodied, regardless of what comes afterward. That is something one must be born to.

What I am, however, is a woman. That is my gender, the way I live my life, and how I present myself to the rest of the world. It remains true regardless of whether I have had SRS, or ever have it in the future.

Monica Helms brings up an excellent point about the other side of the coin, the one no one ever seems to give too much thought to:

Those who are so quick to want to exclude pre-operative transwomen from the ladies room and label us men based solely on our genitalia, forget that what they are also demanding is that FTM's use the ladies room.
As an example, here's the profile of my dear friend Ethan St Pierre. As much as I love Ethan like a brother, I don't think I'd be comfortable with finding someone who looks like him in the ladies room, would you? Yet, that's exactly what these women are asking for, bathroom and locker room use based strictly on biology, regardless of gender presentation and appearance.

Add to that the fact that just about every bathroom has at least one stall where one can privately attend to one's needs, and this seems like probably the single stupidest argument to divide a community over. We should be teaching others how to get over things like this, not giving credence to the bigoted fears that keep us excluded from full equality under the law by showing that even some of our own community validate such positions.

That's called respect. I may not have had a male identity, but my body was also not fully female. Maybe it's a woman thing to think this way.

You seem to be behind on the feminist movement, but most modern day feminists don't believe that "women think" a certain way. Most feminists call that essentialism, and it's something most patriarchal advocates use to keep women oppressed.

Val, Monica and Marti........I am quite aware none of you have any respect for me.......so how about stopping all the negative comments I have not returned in kind?

I can have respect when someone dialogues with me in good faith, honestly. You've done neither. I'm very aware of your history... quite aware. Regardless, you can claim disrespect, but you can not prove any. I disagree with your words, I do not disrespect your personhood. Just because you say you're a victim, doesn't necessarily mean you are.

Er... Sue... You still haven't explained your comment where you appear to have accused all non-post-op trans-women of being men. I'd personally really love to hear your explanation of that.
Um Joyce I never did any such thing.

Have a nice day.
Sue

No, I'm just aware enough of reality to know that just because I cosmetically rearrange my penis, that won't change my chromosomes, my pelvic outlet, or any other biological male charachteristic that I have won't magically be changed. I'm smart enough to know that you can be male bodied and female gendered. Gender is a social construct, and as such I go through life and the world sees me as a woman, even though I was born with a male body. Your logic would only make sense if you aligned your birth sex with your gender through surgery... which makes NO sense unless it was brain surgery.


You can use whatever justification you want.
Perhaps you should read something other then de-constructionist dogma. Gender might be a social construct in your mind but biological sex isn't.

I am glad you are happy with your male body.
it must be nice to be borne male and be happy with what God Gave You.

Oh before i forget.
it was Transsexuals who wanted surgury who worked to change the laws in California so people like you could change the sex marker on your driver's license.

I think you will find in every other state where you can do change your sex marker on your drivers license that it was Surgery Tracked Old School style Transsexuals that made that possible.

Don't to say thank you to the activists that made that possible.

Take care
Sue


As for invading spaces, let's deploy the old warhorse for a moment: where do you think that pre-operative transsexuals should pee in the course of a normal day?

I still maintain that no one I know who possesses a penis feels comfortable in a space where natal women undress.

I agree Val. But the funny thing is, every transman and cigendered woman I've asked, has said that a preop transwoman could go into a womans locker room (with stalls, that are common) and not expose their genitals.

But I do believe that you executed a grave tactical error in your approach. The HBS crew are not the enemy. Maybe at times obnoxious, insanely persistent, and well batsh** crazy blind. But, bless their souls, they know not what they do.

I don't buy that. While I don't think they are the enemy, I do think they are misogynistic and homophobic.

Sure HBS is a theory. So is your understanding of gender and sex. It's all theory. That's both the reason for the pleasure and pain of it all.

No. My understanding of biology is based on imperial data, not theory. Gender, hell ya. But I'm not trying to be a shower and bathroom Nazi either. There in lies the difference.

There's no reason to completely invalidate the core of any individual's being. Nope. And you might have considered the number of NON-CRAZY trans folks who might, to varying degrees, find validity with HBS.

I do believe part of HBS myself (the neurological, intersex part). If you want to believe that you're a tooth fairy, that's your deal. I'm not saying you shouldn't have the right to identify that way. But when you start trying to pin that on others,...that's what I have a problem with.

I mean, really? How productive is it to identify ANY trans person NO MATTER HOW STUPID or what tool-ish qualities they posses as the epitome of Janice Raymond? C'mon lady, I thought you were a radical revolutionary?!

I said that:

These HBS advocates are the epitome of what radical feminists deplore. They are the "advance agents of the Patriarchy" that Janice Raymond spoke of. They seek to solidify and protect the gender binary.

There is nothing in that statement that isn't true.

I personally find it terribly insulting that you felt entitled to apologize for the existence of any transgender/transsexual person. I mean, does the gay community go around apologizing to the Bush administration for bug chasers in the gay mens' community?

It isn't anything of the sort. It was only an admission that what HBS people represent is exactly what radical feminists deplore... and I deplore as well... the gender binary. The difference I have with them is that I believe the binary should be liberated from biology, not destroyed.

Feminists never have been our enemy, but some of them have been our adversaries. It's the same with comparing HRC to Focus on the family. FOF, is definitely our enemy, HRC is our adversary.

I am very reluctant to enter the lion's den but on behalf of the friend that I referred to before I do want to make a brief observation.

I think that it is unfair to categorise a woman of operative history as faux, male or constructed. I was a "second wave" feminist and still hold many of the positions commonly associated with that title. Still, one woman changed my views on the validity of the concept of the "post-op lesbian" and when I hear invalidation of others like her I have an instinct to become defensive. I am reluctant to call any such a woman "male" unless they are clearly socialized and behave like one.

You misunderstand, Maura. I am making the distinction between biologically male and man or biologically female and woman. If you're going along the classic definition of what a "female" is, then that does not apply to your friend. My whole point in this was to show that Sue, Cathy and every other HBS person I've ever encountered that is HBS identified has had the same attitude as Sue, being that if you're pre-op, you're a man. I do not know one transman that supports HBS, because when you apply the theory to 99 percent of all transmen, they're really just "fake men", because, after all, genitals are what sex you, right Sue?

Similiarly, I will not describe a non-op/transgendered woman as male unless they behave as a male. I do acknowledge that they do have male genital anatomy and this is an issue in locker rooms and showers in terms of the comfort of other women.

As I've stated before (and Val too), I don't know any pre-op/non-op trans woman that would EVER go into a shower area to expose herself. I've asked quite a few of my transman and cigendered female friends if in their opinion, a pre-op transwoman could shower and change without detection. Every one of them said that yes, it was possible. This is a question that I deal with in reality. When I go to a facility like that I either use the family changing area, or I just leave. To suggest that a transwoman would go into a locker room to expose herself, is just ludicrous, and frankly it's the rhetoric of the religious right.

One of the things that I respect my friend most for is her regard for the feelings and comfort of other women. Such empathy is in my experience a feminine and feminist characteristic, critical to a sense of sisterhood. Her integrity in this regard is what floored me about her and made me reconsider my attitudes as it did others in our group. We became better women, better people and better feminists because of the unique experience fo having her as part of our coterie. In the midst of the acrimony here that is something to consider.

Maybe a feminist characteristic, but I've known quite a few butch women that and transmen that also show such empathy, comfort, and regard. I don't think that integrity is limited to those who've had surgery.

Whether one is pre-op, post-op, non-op, CD or whatever else when it comes to traditional women's spaces it is all about "passing." I.E. if a biologically born male passes as female then going in these spaces is seen as OK by most people.

Passing has three main components:

1. Physically passing - in this the genitals are not all that important since it is the face and voice that most people use to ID gender. If most people ID someone as female when they are dressed then I consider them as physically passing. Genitals can easily be hidden in the private stalls in female bathrooms. Locker rooms may be another issue but keep reading for more on this.

2. Legally passing - if one is post-op and has their paperwork in order then they can appear as male as they wish to. They will join the butch women in making some other women uncomfortable but, like these women, they have a perfect right to be in women's spaces.

3. Emotionally passing - even if you got the luck of the genetic draw and appear stereotypical female if you insist on identifying as anything but female you've deliberately chosen not to be accepted as female. OTOH if you consistently ID as female then you're well on your way, perhaps even there already, to being accepted as female. A pre-op, non-op, etc. who still has a penis and insists on showing it as in a locker room does not desire to emotionally pass. They need to stay out since their own choice is not to appear as female.

So, on one extreme we have people born biologically male who physically, legally and emotionally pass. Of course they belong in women's spaces. On the other extreme we have people born biologically male who do not physically, legally or emotionally pass. Of course they don't belong in women's spaces.

Since everyone who legally passes belongs, by law, in women's spaces this leaves us with four pre/non-op (by which I include CDs, TGs, gender queers, etc.) groups that may or may not belong in women's spaces. Two of these groups do not emotionally pass, by their own choice. They need to stay out of women's spaces.

What about the remaining two groups? They are:

Emotionally pass and physically pass too - I see female spaces as appropriate for them.

Emotionally pass but physically don't - this is our big issue. What should society do with the 6' 5", 250 pound pre/non op individual who through no fault of their own can't pass? I'm interested in what others have to say about this.

Nerissa

I believe Marti has made my point better than anyone could.....they simply have to invalidate our lives and identities to validate their own and there is no middle ground possible.

As long as the Marti's are the dominant voices in the transgender movement women of transsexual history are not only going to avoid them but treat them as the enemies they have demonstrated they are. In the greater world they are literally the only ones who spout this denial of womanhood to women of transsexual history other than the most rabid of the religious right.

And the really sad thing is most of us have no problem with those who don't constantly attack our identities and bodies and many of us even were very active in pursuing civil rights for all trans people before we were treated this way. The Marti's are the ones who made a united transgender and transsexual movement impossible, not us.

It was worth wading through 70+ posts to see Nerissa's comment.

My answer - act with compassion. Make it so they legally pass, and get in that way.

We already have precedent, in one way.

Those like Khadijah Farmer legally pass. She has xx chromosomes, the usual genitalia I should imagine, a female gender identity, but anyone who sees her on a video rather than a still picture knows that she's vibes male. Body language, gait, posture... So she gets all sorts of hurtful stuff.

Not everyone with xx chromosomes who vibes male is a pre-op transman. Not everyone with xx chromosomes who is a transman vibes male.

Neural Intersex can affect one part of the brain, or many parts. To have HBS it's necessary that those parts associated with gender identity are affected, and although other parts are almost always affected too, sometimes they're not.

"Mother Nature can think beyond binaries. Human Nature cannot." Most people in the transgender community understand a concept of humanity that goes beyond binaries. Why do HBS people insist on wanting us to embrace binary-only thinking? Seems a bit archaic.

The Marti's are the ones who made a united transgender and transsexual movement impossible, not us.

I know! There is an army of us...walking in unison to destroy the Cathy's of this world! I am the Dark Sith!

:p

Try decaf.

Nerissa Good to see you here...

Cathryn
we don't need the marti's of the world.
We and our foremothers were activists long before they came along. we were the ones who worked with regulators, mental health and medical professionals to change drivers license laws all over the country to allow TS to transition with a drivers license that had a sex marker that reflected the person's appearance and demeanor. These Johnny come lately's have us and our foremothers to thank for their freedom of movement in this country.

Then can run us off and make all kinds of rude remakes about our need for surgery but then cannot deny history.

Good old fashioned Old School Transsexuals were there well before Stonewall.

Take care
Susan Robins
HBS Survivor.

"Mother Nature can think beyond binaries. Human Nature cannot." Most people in the transgender community understand a concept of humanity that goes beyond binaries. Why do HBS people insist on wanting us to embrace binary-only thinking? Seems a bit archaic.

Monica we really don't care what you embrace.
we just want to be left out of your activism.
it doesn't benefit us, it never has.

Still waiting for that blog...


Sue


Quite a few years back, prior to my transition, I was having lunch at a restaurant in the North End.
I was with a transgender woman and her partner.
I asked the waitress the location of the ladies room and she responded by telling me that I had to use the men's room. I was pretty naive back then and I thought the ladies room was out of order. I walked down the narrow hallway on my way to the men's room only to encounter a large male waiter standing in the doorway of the ladies room with his arms folded across his chest.
I was passing as a man regardless of my genitals and regardless of the gender marker on my drivers license. Perhaps with a few exceptions, as Becky pointed out, no one wants me in the ladies room. (-:

"Monica we really don't care what you embrace.
we just want to be left out of your activism.
it doesn't benefit us, it never has."

If you cannot think beyond binaries, then you are not part of the solution, but part of the problem.

Marti, have you posted my article, yet? Apparently Cathy and Sue need something else to whine about.

[EDITOR'S NOTE:] This comment has been taken down for Terms of Service violation. Play nice!

Thanks for joining the discussion at The Bilerico Project! Please be respectful of others. We reserve the right to delete a comment that is off-topic, abusive, uses excessive foul language, is exceptionally incoherent, includes a homophobic, transphobic, racist, sexist or other slur or is soliciting and/or advertising.

That is okay Monica
Those of us who ahve known you for the last seven or so years are use all your talk and the lack of action on your part.

Why can't you post your blog
Your the one who made such a big deal of it.


You were going to cross I and T's
a clear slam at the intersex and some transsexuals.

So
Put your money where your mouth is.
we are tried of arm chair activists.

Sue


[EDITOR'S NOTE:] This comment has been taken down for Terms of Service violation. Play nice!

Thanks for joining the discussion at The Bilerico Project! Please be respectful of others. We reserve the right to delete a comment that is off-topic, abusive, uses excessive foul language, is exceptionally incoherent, includes a homophobic, transphobic, racist, sexist or other slur or is soliciting and/or advertising.

Wow went to check my email and I see this thread is alive and well. Well at least swords and knives havent been drawn yet and a blood feud called for!So Popcorn any one?

actually Monica I am becomming impatient with your attitude. always making some degrading comment.

Like the one you just made.

You cannot say anything without degrading someone.

If you want to be a woman so bad
Then leave the bullying attitude behind.
You don't come across as a woman.

If you know English so well try looking up the word Manners.


Sue

Please pass the popcorn Cathy.. Hot air poped i hope...

Just Monica Helms doing her harry chest pounding that's all...


Sue

Well, there is one good thing about today. It's Friday. I get to go home, to MY townhouse and relax. I do have to do OT on Sat and Sun, but just 4 hrs each. I'll cook me some dinner and work on my projects in the basement. On the 30th of this month, I'll be on my job for 18 years now. I can't wait for 20, because I'll get 5 more vacation days. Normally, I would go to a wonderful lesbian club on Fridays, but I just feel the need to stay home tonight. I'll talk to some of my family on the phone. My oldest son and I are very close. He's become one of my good friends. You met him, Sue.

Sue, you may see this as bragging, but I'm making a point. An after-market vagina isn't the only thing that makes a transsexual successful. Life doesn't revolve around my crotch, like it does for you. The house is a great investment in my future. In a few years, I will refinance my house and renovate Monica. You know what I'll be then? A home owner with a good job, a family who loves me, a transsexual, veteran, transgender person AND the owner of a new after-market vagina, one that will see a lot of uses by other women. Did your after-market vagina give you any of that? So, don't come whining on this blog, about how superior you are just because a doctor inverted your penis. It don't mean s-word when you go to bed and the lights go out.

[EDITOR'S NOTE:] This comment has been taken down for Terms of Service violation. Play nice!

Thanks for joining the discussion at The Bilerico Project! Please be respectful of others. We reserve the right to delete a comment that is off-topic, abusive, uses excessive foul language, is exceptionally incoherent, includes a homophobic, transphobic, racist, sexist or other slur or is soliciting and/or advertising.

as usual all talk and no action
Where is that Mother of all blogs?

Keep it up Monica...
Showing your true colors.

I am glad

Sue, you really should grow up. Monica's post will be up in the morning on Transadvocate.com.

Marti
I find it really interesting you would call me out for harping on Helms's vaperware blog
yet you turn a blind eye toward Helms's demeaning comments.
I guess because Monica is "defending the TG cause" it's okay.
Right?

i am sure that if i hadn't pressed the issue Monica would have just let it go..

I am looking forward to it.

Monica here is a big Kiss for you.
if it shows up...
Sue

I'm going to wade into the shark-filled waters here.

Knock it the hell off

You're adults. Act like it.

I've TOS'd more comments in the past 24 hours on these two trans threads than I have in the entire 3 year history of the site. Ya'll should be - at least - a little ashamed.

Not all of us know the entire history of a few trans activists blood feuds and prior complaints. And honestly, until it comes out in a book by Eric Marcus, I don't really give a shit. But the majority of our readers are non-trans so ya'll are doing a helluva job of representing.

I'll close with this: Both groups here claim to have the heart of the movement and the best for all folks trans. If this is how you treat each other, I'm glad you're not looking out for me.

It's been a bad week and I'm not inclined to be generous after previously putting the rules in both threads. Consider this fair warning - if you've already been TOS'd in these two threads and I end up having to do it again - you're outta here for two weeks. No ifs, ands or buts.

Now grow up. Or at least play nice.

*stomps off really grumpy now*

You know what Bil

The HBS crowd doesn't give a rat's ass about the heart of the movement.
We don't any part of people like Helms or her ilk.

Helms has nothing to do but talk crap bout those of us who have been successful without the TG movement.

HBS came about because her ilk hijacked the term transsexual. They are nothing of the sort they have no desire to have surgery.

The bottom line is TG folk can't live without the legitimacy of the Transsexual (old school). HBS people. Otherwise they would have not included TS in the transgender umbrella/
It was not our choice to be a part of the TG group. we like society the way it is and we get on in it just fine.

With that said.

I think it is time for the TG's to re think their position and their advocacy.
They don't speak for TS/HBS identified Females and Never have.

You need to talk to Hamls about acting like an adult, the rest of us are tried of taking her shit?


Sue Robins
Proud NOT TO BE a TG


By the way bil
some of us take offence at comments liek
After market vagina
I see yo udon't have any trouble with that

i guess that shows your lack of knowledge about Trans politics
Yet you censor comments like Harry chest.

Yah okay

why don't you do a little more learning about TG issues before you start censoring things.

Have a wonderful day sir.

Sue

Sue...

You know, by now I don't know if you're right or wrong. Even I tuned out ages ago. You're just arguing amongst yourselves now.

Sadly, I still have a lot of questions that both of these posts brought to mind. Not really any answers though - just a bad taste in my mouth.

It seems to amount to petty differences steeped in language only the two groups know intimately. It's no different than Baptists talking down Presbyterians.

By the way bil
some of us take offence at comments liek
After market vagina
I see yo udon't have any trouble with that

You have a problem with aftermarket vagina? But paleo-transgender is acceptable? Who the hell knows? When I've asked you not to use that term for it's derogatory meanings, you've argued in favor of it as a simple description. According to your own standards, "after market vagina" seemed perfectly fine.

I still say
you ahve been using an uneven hand in censoring posts....


I jsut find it really sad you will allow Helms to go on and say offensive things about me and other Post-Ops yet you will censor me for saying Helms has a harry chest when i have SEEN IT FOR MY SELF.

I am just stating fact

really After market Vagina?
how in the hell can you justify that comment?

You don't see people here making childish comments like Fake Boogs or phoney facial surgury.

Now do you?

why in the F&&^%^ would you allow comments like that unless you really believe what Helms says?

That deserves an answer.
Or at least delete those posts.

You really dissapoint me sometimes, you know that?

Susan Robins
HBS survivor

ou have a problem with aftermarket vagina? But paleo-transgender is acceptable? Who the hell knows? When I've asked you not to use that term for it's derogatory meanings, you've argued in favor of it as a simple description. According to your own standards, "after market vagina" seemed perfectly fine.
You have never asked me not to use that term. and there is nothing derogatory about it. what is wrong with Old school transgendr? Explain what is wrong?

Don't be dishonest.
If you have then link up the post.

Sue

I am just going to say one more thing...
I am glad my validation as a Female doesn't depend on what People like Monica Helms thinks.

My validation is based on my day to day life as a member of female society and my ability to move into and out of women's spaces.

I never felt marginalized because i use to have a peace of meat hanging between my legs. I didn't whine and try to change the world i did something about that birth defect.

and you know what?

People like Monica who whine about that and degrade people like me because i Did what was right for me show haw small and helpless they really are.

What Monican Helms and her ilk don't want the rest of the world to know it is to them about much more then that. They can't tolerate the fact they are so locked into their lives that they think they cannot change things. Monica Helms has not even changed her legal name let alone lived full time.

Monica doesn't have the courage to make the transition. Nor does she have the ability to live full time without loosing her job.

She makes a lot of good talk but that is all it is.

Stick a fork in me i am done with this silliness.


Susan robins
Full time and real since May of 1980.
Can you say that Monica?

Hang on a second Sue, I don't think you're being fair. As you and many others know, I'm not exactly shy about saying so when I see something here that I consider offensive, and frankly, I just don't see that here.

Has it been a spirited debate and have aggressive invectives been used? Definitely. Does that rise to the level of "offensive"? Aside from the posts Bil has removed (which I didn't get a chance to read beforehand), personally I don't think so.

I will say, however, that I think this discussion has progressed long past the productive stage at this point. While I'm always fully in favor of a variety of perspectives and intense exploration and debate of relevant issues, and especially about trans-relevant topics, this discussion now seems to be simply revolving around the same tired points over and over again now. If it's to keep going, I'm hoping for some fresh points and perspectives, because right now even I'm getting bored with it.

Well you know.
Monica can take her after market remarkes and stick them where the sun doesn't shine.
I still happen to know Helms has not even changed her name.

where in the Hell does Helms get off telling me about what it is like to live and work in the real world?

Please answer that for me.

because i am tired of the shit helms spreads.

Take care
Sue

Wow. Hit a nerve, didn't I? I'm guessing she complained about the term "after-market vagina" because she couldn't argue with success.

If you purchase a stereo system for your car that didn't come from the factory, it's called an after-market stereo. It's an accurate description. I didn't invent the term "after-market." Just used it in another realistic context.

So, how can a person know if I have never changed my name or not living full time if they haven't known me for very long and only seen me once? Seems someone was really stretching for ways to cut me down. Anyone who lives near Sue may want to look in on her just to make sure she's okay. I truly mean that.

Back to my dinner.

I find it really interesting that Monica you hold license to insult others while they can't say things that are true about you.

it must be nice to be a poser and not have lived a single day full time.


Sue
nearly 28 years full time now.

Hang on a second Sue, I don't think you're being fair. As you and many others know, I'm not exactly shy about saying so when I see something here that I consider offensive, and frankly, I just don't see that here.

Has it been a spirited debate and have aggressive invectives been used? Definitely. Does that rise to the level of "offensive"? Aside from the posts Bil has removed (which I didn't get a chance to read beforehand), personally I don't think so.

I will say, however, that I think this discussion has progressed long past the productive stage at this point. While I'm always fully in favor of a variety of perspectives and intense exploration and debate of relevant issues, and especially about trans-relevant topics, this discussion now seems to be simply revolving around the same tired points over and over again now. If it's to keep going, I'm hoping for some fresh points and perspectives, because right now even I'm getting bored with it.

actually i have to differ with you..

The after market vagina remark is something i would expect to come from a Christian Fundamentalist Man not a person who identifies as TS. Full time or not. (and we know Helmes is not full time)

a Nexus search revels no such person as Monica Helms with any past name. Name changes are a matter of public record.

You might not take the comment as being offensive however your not Post-Op and if you were i can assure you Helms would be turning on you as well.

Your correct this discussion has gone past the productive stage and it's a good thing it's not a face to face discussion.

One of these days Monica will learn to keep her mouth shut hopefully it will be soon.

Sue


I still want to see Monica's blog.
Here Monica send it to
sue-ann173@cox.net

if you are having trouble getting it posted.

although i think like your status as a full time TS woman the blog simply doesn't exist.
Your just blowing smoke out of the only orifis you have below the belt line.

Lets see the blog.

Sue

Sue,

Either you keep missing it or you're just not getting it:

Monica Helms doesn't have a blog yet.

Her work has appeared here, in the Washington Blade, Transgender Tapestry, Transadvocate.com, and probably other places I don't know or don't remember right now.

Also, having known Monica for some time now I can tell you she is quite real, and I think you're being a bit ridiculous here. Challenge her points, sure, but let's not get personal. There are plenty of other places for that. This isn't the TGV_Advocacy list.

Let's keep it on-topic and issues-based, huh?

well she said she was going to write one.
I take her at her word.

I guess you are saying Monica had no intention of writing anything.

Just another hollow threat on her part i suppose.

Don't talk to me about getting personal.
she has demeaned me in every post she has made and I am sorry she has made some rather offensive comments.
and if you can't see that i suggest you get your eyes checked.

I use to think this place was more respectful then TGV Advocacy, I am beginning to wonder now if you and the management are going to turn a blind eye to her insults.

I will be happy to keep it on topic as long as Helms can stop making demeaning comments.

The rules need to work for everyone not just for someone who is not a personal friend.

Thank you
Susan Robins


Now that is unfair, Sue. Yes, I've known Monica for some time, but so what? I'm not taking any sides in this, I just don't think these personal issues should be hashed out in the Bilerico Project comments.

As an example, Marti and I have known each other and have been friends for over a decade now. We disagree quite regularly on various issues, and we have challenged each other here and elsewhere on many occasions. While there certainly may be at least a few arguable exceptions over the years, we generally keep our disagreements about the issues and don't (seriously) attack each other personally. In fact, one of the reasons I asked her to do a regular segment on my radio show is because not only is she good on the air and we have a great on-air rapport, but we also have some pretty terrific and entertaining debates.

The point here is that as enthusiastically as Marti and I can and do go after each other on the issues, we don't get personal or nasty and at the end of the day we're still friends.

Again, you want to debate Monica or anyone else here on the issues? Go for the gusto, girl. But if you're going to get personal, take it outside.

you know as a general rule i don't have a problem with Marti or you. The two of you can debate issues and not make it personal.
That is the way it should be.

I admit my last comment was uncalled for and i apologize for it, it was out of line.

Take care
Sue

I feel compelled to add my two cents' worth here. It saddens me to see so much incredible division among us. How in the world can we ever educate the public and members of Congress when there is so much anger, hatred and discord in our community? There is so much shouting here, no one can hear.
Many years ago I read a story about a teacher asking a young girl if she would like to be referred to as "African-American," "Black," or "Negro?" The little girl looked up at her, and said, "Would you just call me Mary, please?"
Let's forget about all these names and definitions and show each other some respect. How can we ever expect to be accepted by the non-gender variant community if we can't even respect one another?

Shakay, that'd be great, but the whole point of HBS is to say, "ew, I'm not like those people who associate with queers."

The reason I wrote the post in the first place was to bring to light to the G and L community, where a lot of the trans homophobia is coming from. You only have to survey HBS sites to see what I'm talking about.

Essentially, their position is "I'm not like you".

IN all fairness Marti it is not really that way.
we are all different it is about diversity.
when groups set themselves apart their needs can be more easily addressed.

If those of us who are HBS survivors were really like that I wouldn't running a support/social group that is 60% transgender.

Take care
Sue

The whole point of the gender movement is to allow people to live authentic lives and be true to themselves. Each person gets to say what is their own truth. It is the height of hypocracy -and what my sixth grade teacher called "consumate gaul" - for anyone who has claimed that right for themselves to pass judgment on anyone else's choice. The hubris and conceit of that position is completely maddening.

Unfortunately, it is not unique to this community, but many of the other examples have already been shown for the stupidity and prejudice that it represents. For example, the notion that lighter skin African-Americans were superior to darker skin people.

But the temptation for certain individuals to proclaim that theirs is the only way to proceed and to denigrate any other choice is too great, apparently. And that's not even getting to the merits of the differing points of view.

I'd love to pontificate about what I believe The Truth is, but that's really irrelevant, because *I* don't get to say! And neither does anyone else. And yes, I do have a point of view.

If we want others to accept our gender choices, we really ought to do the same for them. And the particulars are irrelevant. There will always be someone whose had more surgeries, or has been out longer, or has more documentation. It goes back to the skin color paradigm.

The same goes for "pedigree". Unless you think there is something intrinsically evil about transitioning, it doesn't matter how much validation you have before you do it. If you do think it's evil, I just have nothing to say to you.

It seems to me that anyone who spends time associating with any part of the GLBTQQI community, including reading blogs and writing comments, should not claim to be above, beyond, exempt, or simply not a part of it. If you weren't in it, you'd have no interest, vested or purient, in engaging in 100+ comment threads. It goes counter to the definition of "stealth" to participate in the community in any way.

It seems to me, it never benefits a discussion to veer off the issues and focus on the characteristics of the people involved. To do so indicates a lack of viable arguments. The Golden Rule benefits all. Vindictiveness (and a lack of understanding of grammar and spelling) reflect quite badly on the perpetrator.

It's also my experience that people who claim special expertise, power, or longevity, are rarely as gifted as they portray.

There are some real issues for the gender community. Fighting over definitions and legitimacy are not included. And please, if you see someone run up more than a dozen comments in a day, understand that this is a person who only is interested in her own point of view, and no one else's. Therefore, there's simply no point in engaging her; except to run up the comment count. I imagine that most of us don't have the kind of time necessary to slog through this stuff.

Bil, if you would like non-polemic answers to some of your questions, I can give it a go. Hell, I can also give you the polemic version, if you'd like. ;-)

I certianly agree with everyone having the right identify as they wish. This is the very reason i support the separatist movement in the TS/HBS community. I for one make no claims of superiority.
When someone attacks me i respond in kind. Terms like after market vagina show a certain neo-gynophobia at the very least and an outright hatrid of a segment of the TG/TS communities.

To even hear this from someone who holds some status as an activist in the community leaves a black mark on said community. They are in the same camp as religious fundamentalists who beat others about the head and shoulders with their version of what the Bible says.

I certianly don't go around attacking transgenders who wish not to have sex reassignment. I don't demean them for their decision, i respect their decision. However I will not put up with attacks from anybody I am a human being and i have just as much value as every other human being.

Anyone pushes me I push back and twice as hard.

I hate bullies.


Susan Robins


Yoo-hoo! Susie girl! I posted a link to my blog earlier. Why haven't you been there? You whined about wanting to see it so much. Cat got yer fingertips?

Monica i was there Yesterday I read it and copied it to my hard drive.

I was expecting more bang for my buck but it will serve.
Take care
Sue

When I first read Marti Abernathey’s insulting post on January 22, it had already been hanging in Bilerico five days. I was appalled no other blogger had touched the remark and published Advocates and Insults the very same day. I closed my essay asking, and then answering this question:

And will the other transgender blogs and GLBT activists pick up on Abernathy’s enlightened position and roast her to a golden brown as they did Susan Stanton for a much, much less offense?

Nope…they won’t touch it.

And they didn’t.

So, it was no surprise to me when I saw Abernathey’s acknowlegement of her remark had very little to do with what she said here in Bilerico a week and half ago. Instead, she side steps her remarks almost entirely, preferring to go on offense and come after me, another post op, and the concept of WBT/HBS/True/Classic/WHATEVER transsexuality. She ends with a take on feminism that nobody on the planet but the transgender would ever take seriously.

Eleven days after she first posted her insults here at Bilerico, with shout downs and insults ad nauseum, the thread quickly evolved into 1) what Marti said was some how justified, 2) because the postoperative transsexuals have the nerve to stand up to the transgender construct and say “no more”.

To bring this back into context, Marti said this:

“You want to get technical…? In the strictest definition, you’re not female. The distinction between the “sexes” is that a female has the ability to produce ova, and the male has the ability to produce produces sperm. Your “sex” isn’t based on an organ but on your reproductive ability. For that matter, your neo-vagina isn’t even an “organ.” An organ is tissue or a group of tissues that constitute a morphologically and functionally distinct part of an organism. Your “vagina” isn’t a social construct, it’s a surgical construct. And an incomplete construct at that! Go find your bartholin glands….”

Postoperative transsexuals hear this kind of diatribe all the time from the transgender and it's no doubt the strerotypical view society-at-large holds of post ops…so we strongly object to what Abernathey said.

It’s enough that this is the same - THE EXACT SAME - argument the religious right and ultraconservatives worldwide hold.

It doesn’t matter what context Abernathey was using. It doesn’t matter Abernathey refutes the science that, though limited, clearly points to transsexuality, as Benjamin defined it, as being a medical condition and not a “social construct”. It also doesn’t matter what point Abernathey was trying to prove…who she was arguing against…or what the venue was.

It was an insult to every post op, MtoF OR FtoM who ever walked the earth…an insult in which Abernathey does no more than justify, much less apologize for.

I vowed not to participate here anymore due to the level of disrespect and insult that was allowed to be stated towards women such as myself..but to drive home the point Susan is making consider this:

If I started calling a gay man here a cocksucker or a buttfuc*er or any of the other familiar slurs, no one would buy for one second the argument that those things are "technically correct" that Abernathey used. It would be clear it was hate speech because enough gay men have made it clear it is and it is self evident the purpose was to hurt.......

There is no difference here between that and Marti and company doing these things to us. We have been trying to tell the rest of you that and you won't hear us.....but hate speech is defined by those it is hurled at and the desire to inflict hurt and the insult felt by the victim and Marti traffics in hurtful and hateful put downs, conflict and insults and has since I first encountered her. We called foul, you ignore us. That says more about you than it does about us. And we then hear we are the bigots?

I shall retire once more into silence here, this is hostile territory to me almost on the same level a fundie blog would be. Reflect on that.

Oh, please Cathy... no one has taken more heat over this than me. I've been called a man, Sir, and other obscenities that I can't even post here.

The difference in what you've posted and the word transgender is that one is considered an obscene slur, the other is not. My entire point with Sue, as it would be with you, is that Penis=Man is one line in sand, as is what I said to her. It's technically true, but practically not. There are very few people I've ever let see my genitals. People judge my gender or sex based on what they see, not what is in your pants.

As far as being hurtful, when I was just a newb, you were the person to give me my internet calluses. As per usual, it's about who's harmed you, instead of an honest dialogue.

Actually Marti She is Correct.

Sue

Susan it is a shame they don't see that they are acting just like those very people they hate on the religious right.

I still would like to know why are they so afraid of loosing a group they hijacked in the first place.
A group that is a minority within a minority that they are not even interested in advocating for our needs.

Maybe it's because a new birth certificate for some of our girls who have had genital surgery is something that they see as a mockery of what they consider as real women. Could it also be they want to tear down the social structure that allows for men's and women's places that 90=% of the population supports.

After all Marti did call me and every other Post-Op female a man.

Why are they holding on to us so tightly, why are they denying our freedom to identify how we wish and leave the supportive transgender community.

Oh well
They will never get it

Take care
Sue

Marti
Read This

I think it explains volumes what the problem is.

Sue

Marti Read This

I think it explains volumes what the problem is.

Sue

I'm not sure I understand. Is the problem a bad wig?

I wouldn't know Never warn a wig in my life.
Never needed one.

Sue