Marti Abernathey

Am I A Liar?

Filed By Marti Abernathey | March 08, 2008 2:42 PM | comments

Filed in: Living, Transgender & Intersex
Tags: dating, privacy

I had someone IM me off of OkCupid and ask me about my profile. They liked my writing style and asked me a lot of questions about profile writing. It wasn't a relationship, connection kinda IM, but one of me helping her. During the conversation, I talked about why I wasn't hopeful finding relationships at all. I explained that I am trans, and she said that I should be more obvious about it, that I was being dishonest.

I always thought it was obvious that if you look at my profile you'd know I'm a transsexual. I put links to my personal blog, my transadvocate blog, and I've discussed it in this journal. The reality of my life is that I am transbodied. My hormones, my skin, fat distribution, and breasts are consistent with a female body. I've not had surgery yet, so genitally, I'm a non-functioning male that's been chemically castrated. Is that something I need to put in my profile?

What I've learned in my life is that MOST men and women are full of shit when they say it's more about love than it is genitals. If that were true I'd have people breaking down my damn door. I'm not ugly, I'm employed, I'm a writer, I'm intelligent, I'm funny, and I'm compassionate.

I don't put it as a central focus in my profile because it's not a central focus in my life. Thing is, I'm unique in so many different ways, I don't think I'll ever have a long term partner ever again. I'm poly, I don't believe in sexual labels, and I'm trans. The layering in that is too deep to understand or even explain in a website.

I put my profiles on different sites hoping that my message in a bottle connects with someone enough on here to want strike up a conversation. But like that stranded traveler, I don't put out much hope.

*hums the Gilligan theme*

Do you think I'm being dishonest? If so, how could I state that I'm a transsexual without bring in the fetishists that are looking for sexual encounters (put transgender or transsexual in your profile and that's what you'll get). How can I expect someone to see past my transsexuality, if I make it a main focus?

(I originally posted this at my OkCupid journal):


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I could describe myself in terms of the nasty divorce, difficult relationships with conservative Christian family members, the two boyfriends I've buried, and assorted other soap-opera melodramas that have played out in my past.

I don't introduce myself with those details, though. Anybody who gets to know me well will hear about that stuff at some point.

But, I don't believe meeting people in hopes of dating or more implies a promise, "I'm going to tell you EVERYTHING about me."

Sounds to me like you're on a sensible track regarding disclosure, Marti...

I wouldnt think you were im on Myspace and Fubar.com and call myself female but then read my profile and you will see im trans.But I always get folks who act surprised when they hear me tell it go figure its like they didnt even read the profile.

I wouldnt think you were im on Myspace and Fubar.com and call myself female but then read my profile and you will see im trans.But I always get folks who act surprised when they hear me tell it go figure its like they didnt even read the profile.

She is right you are dishonest
in your profile. You deliberately avoid the use of certain terms that describe your sex.
to further confuse the issue your profile pictures
show the following.

1. a male jaw line
2. the lack of female cheekbones.
3. a high male hairline.

you should be more honest about who you are in
your profile.

To most men and women and most of all;
lesbian woman, what is important is your genitals.
that is life in the real world.

Be honest with with us, do you really expect anything different?
I wouldn't expect anything to be different.

There are places trans genders don't belong unless they are going to be honest with people.

to affirm what i said in the beginning your profile is not honest.

Liz

Certain places trans genders don't belong? :) What I expect, is for people to be able to READ (and with your commentary... SEE). I expect people to have the same reading comprehension as I do.

Again, I'll ask...

If so, how could I state that I'm a transsexual without bring in the fetishists that are looking for sexual encounters (put transgender or transsexual in your profile and that's what you'll get). How can I expect someone to see past my transsexuality, if I make it a main focus?

You could state in your profile.
(which you don't) that you are
a non-operative transsexual.

what is the crime in that?

LiZ

Marti
i would also add there are 3 ways to lie.
1. to make up a story from scratch.
2. to mix facts with fiction.
3. to intentionally withhold facts.

This woman has you on #3.
All of your profiles should say the same thing if you are going to be honest with everyone.


Jennifer, I'm not a non-op. Secondly, any mention of transsexual or transgender gets hits from fetishists and trans chasers.

As per usual, you're here to spout your HBS rhetoric, instead of having an actual discussion.

There's a serious problem with saying that non-disclosure is the same thing as dishonesty.

It would literally be impossible to be honest, as there is always something you're not disclosing. I was born with a third nipple that eventually turned into a birth mark. If I don't put that in my profile, am I being dishonest? I'm multiracial and sometimes mention it in my profiles, but I never break down all of where my racial lineage comes from, am I being dishonest? What if I've got a family history of breast cancer and don't disclose to potential partners that kids they have with me would be at higher risk of breast cancer? There's always something you're not going to say -- or even think to say.

If some things become important enough that disclosure is considered mandatory, who decides? You know what is the most important factor to me in a partner? I need them to be oppression-aware. It's a dealbreaker. But NOBODY puts in their profile "About once or twice a month I say things others consider racist" or "Trans people disturb me." And if it's not mandatory for them to disclose things like that, why should it be mandatory for trans people to have our trans and surgical statuses be the first thing out of our mouths?

Tobi
I am telling you what the dictionary says.
those are the 3 types of lies. I am sorry it's not politically correct.

Marti what are you doing there in the fist place if you are not going to be honest about who you are?

You have to take the good with the bad.
if you cannot tolerate a few perverts why are you posting your profile in such a public place.
why not look for love in your community where you can be honest about your physical sex?


LiZ

You ask me you don't need to really mention it in your profiles if you don't want to. If you get someone who seems interested get to know them a bit first and then disclose to them about your status.

In my experience when you list your status ahead of time you might get one in a hundred of people who are ok with trans people who aren't chasers.

You'll know the chasers usually when they start of the email or IM with something along the lines of "are you ts?". For me I'll usually give them time to hang themselves and if they aren't a trans person themselves then they get blicked on IM and listed as junk in email. Fortunately for myself I've got a great boyfriend who doesn't care how I was born or what parts I have or that I have facial hair that needs removing daily. He loves me for me.

Give it time and you'll find your someone too. I wasn't looking and I found mine.

Sorry about the double posting earlier don't know what thappened there.As far as attracting the gee wow your a transsexual those tend to be rare for me most of the people I connect with tend to accept the fact I am who I am.Most who realy have taken time to know me have other things in common with me.

Now the one site I belong to I get lots of people who just wander by and add me for the hell of it and then never come by my page again.I write those folks off as the casual tourist type or the ones who are upset I dont have any nudes of me in my profile.

Then like I have said before to people to be Trans you have to have a thick skin but most sites if you say what you are upfront most dont realy care one way or the other.

Bruce Parker Bruce Parker | March 8, 2008 6:33 PM

Marti,

Thank you so much for posting on such a personal issue. These things are never simple are they.

I want to commend you for how honest and open your profiles are already. You link to your blogs and are very open in describing yourself. I think you get to decide how you disclose who you are and in what contexts. I think they way that you are doing it on those sites is open and powerful.

I hear stories from transmale friends from time to time about them not disclosing to partners they are involved with romantically and sexually. That seems to me to be a little more nuanced than your case but I don' have a firm opinion on that either in some sense if someone's genitals aren't at issue in the encounter or communication at the moment why announce anything about them. It seems like that would be similar to me looking at the girl sitting at the table over from me in the coffee shop and giving her details about my genital configuration because she said hi to me a minute ago. I don't think she cares.

Finally, I think that lots of cool people are super attracted to transpeople not inspite of their bodies and transexperiences but because of them. That is not to say that it should or is the only reason for the attraction but just saying that you might find someone who thinks your body is awesome regardless of how society or some fucked up people in this thread might understand it. And loves you because you are a writer, a bit of a troublemaker, terribly witty, an activist and a hottie.

I think we want to get away from thinking how do we find people who love us inspite of x or y about us and look for people who don't break us down into small parts and choose which parts to love. What many "tranny chasers" do that is so terrible is reduce the individuals that they are attracted to down to being only defined by their transness. I would argue that people who would articulate loving a transperson in spite of their transness do something equally as terrible by erasing some part of them or their experience.

I know you well enough to believe that you will find someone who is neither too hot (tranny chaser) nor too cold (the inspite of crowd) but is just right.

Thanks so much for posting this again and sorry that it is so long you would think I was writing a comment to defend Hilary.

Of course not - but it doesn't matter anyway. I listed in my anon profile compeletly upfront that I had a T history & someone still was upset after she contacted ME.

Guess she just looked at the photo and didn't care what I wrote.

You lose either way. Would she say you need to list your complete ethnic background just in case someone felt misled? Did she need to list she was intolerant so you could have avoided her?

Bruce Parker Bruce Parker | March 8, 2008 6:50 PM

Bil,

If I am breaking the comment policy I want my warning... I hope I earn my warning. Can I have a spanking?

Liz,

You are a little out of control. The ability to define who we are and how we articulate who we are to others on our own terms is probably the most important thing that the gay, lesbian, bisexual and T R A N S G E N D E R civil rights struggle can teach us. I don't think it is about gay marriage or military service or tax breaks or even sex for me it is about self-identification and articulation in a safe world. Not only is Marti's post talking about some very real challenges of articulating who we are in environments that we can assume will probably be a least partially hostile, it is about toeing the line between making our difference the totality of who we are instead of one part of who we are.

You claim that Marti, "deliberately avoid the use of certain terms that describe your sex." I don't think it is necessarily all that deliberate except for too avoid people who would do to her what you do to her in your comments. That is to essentialize her in terrifying and violent ways. Your responeses have been violent.

Your critique of Marti's profile pictures are inappropriate, mean-spirited and perhaps most importantly useless to the conversaton around this post. While you may think my pics on here make me look a little chubby it is okay with me if you don't feel compelled to tell me unless I ask you - which I will not be doing anytime soon.

You say that to most lesbian women that genitals are what is important - I would argue that many lesbians have very progressive ideas about gender and sexuality. I have dated a few in my time who thought some things were more important than my genitals.

You say, "There are places trans genders don't belong unless they are going to be honest with people." And, it seems like that is saying in any dating related place. Fuck that. That is fucked up. I don't think it is well thought out or nuanced and I think it is outright bigotry.

And finally, while your use of the dictionary is astounding might I suggest that none of us care all that much. Dictionaries and language is a notorious spot of inscribing persecution into people's subconsciousness and society. Words have limits. Somethings we don't have good words for. Somethings fall into the spaces between words. In my Ph.D. courses if we cite the dictionary we get smacked down - autobiographical stories and blog posts are valid (I am in a progressive program) but dictionaries aren't.

You say, "why not look for love in your community where you can be honest about your physical sex?" and I wonder are you conflating genital's to physical sex? How do you understand physical sex? What do we do with bodies that don't conform to society's expectations for one sex or the other? It seems like we have to let go of some of our taken for granted assumptions about what bodies mean if we are gonna make the world safer for gays, lesbians, transpeople and pretty much everyone else who is different.

Bodies matter but shouldn't define us.

You see Liz, I primarily date transpeople and there isn't any part of what you have said to Marti that doesn't make me sick to my stomach. Dictionaries, labels, identities, and assumptions fail us from time to time and if you can't see the nuances of these experiences I am pretty sad for you.

Liz,

I actually wasn't writing that specifically to you, but as you appear to be disagreeing with my assessment, could I ask you to address some of the issues I bring up.

That's "what the dictionary says" is never an adequate resolution of a logical conversation. (My dictionary says to lie is "To be or place oneself at rest in a flat, horizontal, or recumbent position; recline:") Seriously, I just checked the verb form in dictionary.com, and can't find anything about withholding facts as being a definition of lying.

But regardless of which dictionary we're using, how do you respond to my concern that such an approach makes everybody guilty of lying? If you consider it a lie when I do not announce that I am trans, is it a lie when cisgender people do not announce that they are cisgender? Isn't that withholding facts just as much? And if so, then practically everyone in the world is a lier.

Marti, you are not lying or being dishonest. If someone considers you dishonest, then they would be a person you would be dating in the first place. It's a great way to filter out the bigots.

I'm in the lesbian section of Match.com and in my profile I have the sentence, "When I was born, the doctor slapped me on the butt and told my mother, 'Congratulations, it's a boy'." If the women see that and they still want to talk, then that is good. Otherwise, they don't contact me. Pretty simple.

Don't listen to the blog's nay-sayers. You're fine.

Tobi
what is cisgender i have never heard that word before? I am not up on trans gender jargon.

Everyone lies, it's a matter of degree. SO i guess we are all liars at one time or another.
The author of this post asked a question i gave that author an answer to that question i believe to be true.

I just wonder what the author of this post would do if confronted in a public place how the author might answer the question.
Are you a man or a woman?
it is a fair question to ask anybody commenting here on this issue. I know how i would answer.


LiZ

"Cis" is the linguistical opposite of "trans" (taken from latin and chemistry). A person who is cisgender is someone who is not transgender or transsexual.

Oh, and I didn't catch this until just now, but

To most men and women and most of all; lesbian woman, what is important is your genitals. that is life in the real world.

Are you really accusing lesbians of being more transphobic than anyone else? I'm quite defensive of my lesbian and dyke communities, having been born and raised in them. Perhaps you just live in a different "real" world than I do, but there are plenty of lesbians I know who are not transphobic. Certainly there are transphobic lesbians out there, but it's definitely an inappropriate generalization to say that all lesbians care about is genitals. There's quite a strong community of us that have no qualms about dating trans people of any gender.

I have had several non-trans girlfriends, one for four years, who didn't give two shits about my genital configuration. They didn't ask me to use it, and I didn't want to. There are so many different ways for two women to make love that genitals don't have to figure into it at all.

And, in spite of some people's viewpoints, there are plenty of people out there who can see a person's soul and fall in love with that. The body is just a vessel to hold the essences of their soul. Sadly, some people spend a great deal of time and money to make a beautiful vessel, only to carry in it a shallow soul.

I think it's a bit sad that we as a community are still having these discussions at all.

I'm a woman. Beyond that, the shape of my genitalia is none of anyone else's damned business but my own. Unless I'm either sleeping with someone or that prospect appears imminent, they've got absolutely no right to ask or know unless I choose to tell them.

Tobi
i can only go by what one of my employees has said on the subject she is a lesbian and i take her as being an expert on the subject of what lesbians think. to put it in her words.
"Lesbians like fish, you know vagina, we like it so much that is all we want to bed down with".

I have never heard cis gender before i guess there is slang everywhere.

LiZ

Thanks for that clarification. I have no problem believing that you know a lesbian who thinks like that. That's quite a big difference from what I thought you were saying, that all lesbians think that way.

(Though, I'm assuming your conversations with her went into more detail, because that statement seems to indicate that lesbians are sex obsessed more than anti-trans.)

Let me rephrase without using the term cisgender, then:

Is it lying for a non-trans person to not announce that they are not trans?

Marti,

I don't think it's obvious that you are trans in your profile. It's almost like you are leaving it up to your potential mate to figure it out by reason of deduction. If you want to stick with your decision to not disclose that you are trans, maybe you should be more specific about the type of person you are looking for instead. I think that's more of the issue than the whole trans thing. Maybe narrow down the parameters a little more. This is a personal ad on the internet we are talking about, where the attention span is about 2 seconds (I would be amazed if everyone who reads this comment will actually read this sentence).

angie

:::sigh:::
There are as many kinds of Lesbians as there are Lesbians. Our only major commonality is that we are attracted to and generally can only form emotional attatchments to women.

Lesbians are not as a rule "anti-trans," some have no issue with trans-persons, some that them on a person by person basis; some do have objections based upon 1970's era feminist thinking as far as accepting them as women.

As far as dating Lesbians, well, most will have an issue over genital configuration. But what an individual tells someone upon introduction is up to them, I don't discuss my stretch marks when I meet someone.

The only woman of operative history that I know well, according to her partner, told her her history on their first eve out.

So does everyone need to disclose everything now on dating site profiles?

"Hi, my name is Bob. I have a funny shaped mole on my back, my feet stink and I'm going bald. I like long walks on the beach, but my dick curves to the right."

It's stupid. You did fine. Those ads are to see if there might be a connection - not to advertise genitalia.

Marti. Thank you for bringing up an important aspect of our relationships. One thing I always try to keep in mind is if my profile attracts someone because they are interested in "me" or interested in some "body part" I may or may not have. People who believe you are being dishonest for not disclosing your genital status online are only upset because their own preconceptions are not being adhered to. If you find me attractive from my profile without the trans disclosure I have to ask why it would be important to you to find out my trans history? Another thing is if I don't disclose my shoe size on my profile am I being wilfully dishonest? That kind of dishonesty can just as easily apply to *everyone* who posts online. Period! To the person who thinks "dishonesty" is a "lack of full disclosure" consider posting your entire medical record online and see where it gets you.
And, yes, I have had my appendix removed -- along with some other unwanted and unnecessary body parts. :P
Marti, you go girl! Don't let them get you down.
Discretion does not equal Dishonesty.


"About once or twice a month I say things others consider racist" or "Trans people disturb me."
HAAAAHAHAHAHA! Actually, a profile containing stuff along those lines might be quite entertaining. Mine would go something like, "I'm FTM but don't often wear a packer as I have a dicky bladder and find it difficult to fix a Depends pad in the harness". :-D That should get them breaking the door down! ;-) Felix.x

Marti, you are a witty, intelligent and charming person first, you are a woman second, and trans might come in as a distant third. That would be the order I would see someone getting to know and care about you.

If I were to post my profile would I be required to disclose that I have large breasts? Is that anyones business? Like you said, it could bring in the nut jobs who have a thing about large breasts and that certainly wouldn't be what I was looking for in a partner.

Be who you are. An authentic heart, well developed intellect and witty personality are the most attractive qualities I can imagine.

The framework used to evaluate disclosure around GLB identities doesn't carry over to transsexual identities, frankly. In GLB identities, revealing your sexual identity to your peer group means that whoever you come out to can now recognize that as an integral part of your everyday life and experience.

Some transsexual folks do not view casual talking about the historic/current reality of their bodies (especially genitals) to be integral or beneficial in that same way. It often results in questions that have no positive bearing on the present, future, or privacy needs of the transsexual person in question. Inquiries like "What's your 'real' name?" "Have you had The Surgery?", or a sudden up-tick in pronoun slip-ups all serve to disavow the person's current and real identity. Again, not a positive thing.

Additionally, many transsexual people simply identify with the sex they're transitioning to and/or view their transsexuality as a medical condition, so to talk of their pre-transition state is, to many, to talk of nearly someone else entirely, or to discuss a matter that is only a concern on a need-to-know basis.

Of course, it's up to the transsexual person to decide when to disclose in dating/sexual situations, if at all. And that's fine.

Liz,

As the mother of a 16 year old transman I find your comments on this subject to be most offensive and disheartening. I regularly spend time reassuring my child that there are special people in the world who will love him regardless of his genital configuration and I do believe this with all my heart. Clearly you are not one of those special people.

I am glad that I have not yet become so cynical that each morning I am still able get up believing that most people are basically good. That most people are willing to see and hear and learn...that most people have the ability to be compassionate.

The work I do at TYFA brings me into regular contact with uninformed, ignorant and sometimes just plain hateful people. You would think I'd no longer be surprised by closed minds and closed hearts.

I expect it from the religious right, you can see that coming a mile away. The days I am the most surprised are when I find those within the GLBT community who lack compassion, empathy and understanding for others within this community...sigh...so offensive and disheartening.

Ethan Pleshe | March 9, 2008 3:19 AM

Marti,

First of all I don't think you are a liar. I think its up to you whether you want that information on a dating site.

Second, I am open on dating sites about being ftm only because I know most gay guys have issues with people with female anatomy. Yes, I am a gay ftm. :)

Third, I had something similar thing happen to me where I was told I was a liar. I met a guy at a bar and offered to take me on a date. I told him on the date. Then after I got home and he called me and said by the way I'm HIV positive. I thought that was a much bigger deal than being trans but he didn't think so. We talked a couple weeks later and he told me he was upset that I led him on in the bar. If he had known I was ftm he wouldn't have taken me out. Ouch!

In closing, I think it is up to you how you want to handle the dating situation. Most important is to be careful. Good luck!

diddlygrl | March 9, 2008 5:20 AM

This is an interesting and complicated issue, one that does not have an easy answer.

I have wrestled with the question of full disclosure myself, since I also frequent online dating services, and I have not come up with a good answer.

For me, I am a woman and lesbian first, and transexual second. Unfortunately there are people out there that look at the term trans, and never give you a chance, though if they did take the time to get to know you they would enjoy your company and become friends. The negative connotations of the term is what throws many people off. They think immediately of all the negative they have heard, and start to see you not for who you are, but for what you are, never getting past that hurdle.

I think it is up to each individual to weigh the question for themselves and come up with their own answers to it. I do not see it as a question of honesty, but one of allowing people to see you without labels getting in the way.

I don't see any dishonesty whatsoever in your profile Marti. It is simply you describing yourself to potential partners...you're writing about whatever seems important to you in that context and nothing else really matters. If someone feels deceived or whatever that's their problem, isn't it?

Now, what I'd really like to know is how I get a job like yours where I can make $60,000 - $70,000 a year only working weekends! :)

Yours profile seems descriptive enough to me, what with the links to transadvocate and here (thanks for the link, Marti!). There's a lot more on it than my American one, which I haven't updated in over a year. All I say, besides a pic and that I'm a gay male in Carmel (yeah, not accurate anymore), is that I don't bareback, do Republicans, or date smokers. I don't think that's as much as you put.

I guess that makes me a liar since I didn't mention... that one thing. Duh duh duuuuuuuuh

"Deliberately withholding information" assumes that the information is something that people somehow need to know. I have only one kidney. Does everyone need to know that? It's largely irrelevant.

Only if I'm sleeping with someone or have reason to believe that I might be in the near future, do my genitals become relevant to anyone. And first contact on a dating site does not mean that I will end up sleeping with them -- god forbid (I'd had quite a few contacts from dating sites, and only ever met two in real life, one of whom was already travelling in the same circles as myself).

My habit is to state it in my profile, although I`ve found that even then, people fail to read it. And in Marti`s case, she`s left it open for people who are interested in her to find that out for themselves in the beginning. To me, that`s not "deliberately withholding." That should be honest enough, knowing that anyone who was serious enough to make the effort should have ample opportunity -- and if they aren`t going to make that effort, are they worth meeting?

Incidentally, Marti, I have found that some trans admirers who sometimes get written off as "chasers" can actually come around and be reasonable, intelligent and supportive people once they come to understand what our needs and issues are. I've known a number of such folk (mostly but not always online) and seen such intellectual transformations on discussion boards on alt. They're not the majority, but they're there.

Andrea said:

Give it time and you'll find your someone too. I wasn't looking and I found mine.

I don't know if it's good or bad, but I'm ok with being alone. I'd rather not, but it's why I don't think I'll ever find anyone...I'm not willing to settle, and I ain't getting any younger. But the reality for me is that I like my life. Sharing it with someone would be icing on the cake.

Bruce: I wasn't using tranny chaser as a pejorative. (I AM ONE! I like dating other trans people because I don't have to explain a lot of the drama I'm going through). But my focus in life isn't sex, and the men that contacted me before were usually focused in on it. That's ok, just not my thing.

Your critique of Marti's profile pictures are inappropriate, mean-spirited and perhaps most importantly useless to the conversaton around this post. While you may think my pics on here make me look a little chubby it is okay with me if you don't feel compelled to tell me unless I ask you - which I will not be doing anytime soon.

Maybe mean spirited, but I'm aware of my gender variance, and I consider the source.

Angie: thank you for providing a suggestion :) Did you say something? ;)

Jester: It's a two year program... look up radiologic technology :) ... or hell, nursing or respiratory therapy.

Marti, to answer your question, nope.

You proved that without a doubt back in May 2007 as well ;)

Amanda Jones | March 9, 2008 5:23 PM

Hi Marti. While I think that Liz is narrow-minded, at best, and a transphobe, to say the least, I also think she strikes an honest chord. The LGB community has not been so embracing of the trans community and part of this is because of the physical attributes that individuals have. Take the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival who bans all women who were not "born women." If a transwoman has had surgery and is willing to identify as a female, then she is allowed in, but if she wields the almighty penis, she can turn the other way and go hang out with Ricki Ann Wilkins across the street at Camp Trans. Many lesbians would not be with a transwoman because she is or was a bio male. And that's just the truth, as hard as it is to say. Transmen have been more embraced in the lesbian community, perhaps because they often pass as lesbians or identify as lesbians prior to coming out as transmen. However, once a transman identifies as a man, again a difficult issue comes to pass - it f*cks with the identity of the person who is dating him (is she no longer a lesbian if she dates him?), and also many transmen don't want to be a part of the lesbian community. After all, they're not all lesbians! :)

So...it's all complicated. As a lesbian, I feel I can at least lend some opinion to it rather than being someone who knows one lone lesbian, somewhere. wtf?

Take care everyone...

Oh...btw...I think it shouldn't matter. As long as you're happy.

Amanda

Amanda Jones | March 9, 2008 5:28 PM

Hi Marti. While I think that Liz is narrow-minded, at best, and a transphobe, to say the least, I also think she strikes an honest chord. The LGB community has not been so embracing of the trans community and part of this is because of the physical attributes that individuals have. Take the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival who bans all women who were not "born women." If a transwoman has had surgery and is willing to identify as a female, then she is allowed in, but if she wields the almighty penis, she can turn the other way and go hang out with Ricki Ann Wilkins across the street at Camp Trans. Many lesbians would not be with a transwoman because she is or was a bio male. And that's just the truth, as hard as it is to say. Transmen have been more embraced in the lesbian community, perhaps because they often pass as lesbians or identify as lesbians prior to coming out as transmen. However, once a transman identifies as a man, again a difficult issue comes to pass - it f*cks with the identity of the person who is dating him (is she no longer a lesbian if she dates him?), and also many transmen don't want to be a part of the lesbian community. After all, they're not all lesbians! :)

So...it's all complicated. As a lesbian, I feel I can at least lend some opinion to it rather than being someone who knows one lone lesbian, somewhere. wtf?

Take care everyone...

Oh...btw...I think it shouldn't matter. As long as you're happy.

Amanda


I know transwomen that are with lesbians, and for the most part they don't identify as trans publicly, because of it. I've already dated women that self identify as lesbian, but Amanda... you're analysis is spot on (especially with people my age).

But I'm not sure how that effects this post. I don't see myself as being dishonest. There are many things about people we don't know, that when we find out, make them not dating material. The thing I'm trying to get people to do is see me first, then when they're a bit more curious... they'll easily find out that I'm trans.

There are many things about people we don't know, that when we find out, make them not dating material.

When it comes down to it, isn't that what dating is all about? It's a process of getting to know someone and figuring out how all of who they are fits in with who you are.

If we immediately knew everything there was to know about someone just by looking at them or reading a profile on a dating site, there'd be little need to date, right?

LiZ - in your own profile, to be honest, I think you should insert your opinion :

(I think)..there are places trans genders don't belong unless they are going to be honest with people.

No need to say you're Transphobic - you may not think you are. Let your words speak for themselves there.

And if you get hatemail as the result, well, as you said, it's the price of being honest, isn't it? It would be small potatoes compared with what "people with transgender" have to put up with, anyway.

But enough of that. I dislike it when a crowd piles in on an unfortunate individual who espouses an unpopular view. My apologies for that, I don't want you to feel picked on just for expressing an honestly held opinion.

As for my own OkCupid profile, I have as "the most private thing I'm willing to admit here" the line There's a reason why I care about Intersex Human Rights

Nudge Nudge Wink Wink Say No More.

So far, exactly 100% of guys who have asked me out have used that hint to do some research on me. I think anyone who sees Marti's profile and doesn't realise the situation is not the sharpest knife in the drawer, if you get my drift.