Guest Blogger

It's Always About the Restrooms

Filed By Guest Blogger | June 13, 2008 4:00 PM | comments

Filed in: Fundie Watch, The Movement, Transgender & Intersex
Tags: androgyne, Colorado, crossdressing, F2M, guest post, MTF, transgender

Editor's Note: Zythyra is an acoustic musician, writer and activist who lives in rural NH. Zie has had considerable practice over the past few years trying to construct sentences without using any gender pronouns.

Recently, Colorado Governor Bill Ritter signed into law SB200. This bill adds transgendered people to the list included in the state's non-discrimination law. In the weeks preceding the passing of this bill, and the few days since Governor Ritter has signed it, the right wing websites and blogs have been ablaze.

I'm not going to quote them here. If you're interested in reading what they have to say, a Google search for Focus on the Family, Colorado Family Action, Family Research Council, WorldNetDaily and Americans for Truth (About Homosexuality) will keep you busy for quite a while. Their missives about this bill are laden with incorrect use of male pronouns for post op male to female transsexuals and excessive use of quotes around "names" and "gender identities". They seem to be particularly focused on M2F Transsexuals and cross-dressers terrorizing women and girls in public restrooms.

I'm finding what is left out of these diatribes to be fascinating as well. In all of the articles I've read, they never, ever mention the issue of FTM transsexuals in the men's room. Perhaps they're saving F2Ms for a different issue in the future. I'm guessing it might have to do with fear of stealth invasion of sacred male space such as football games or hardware and auto parts stores. These gender transgressions could destroy the moral fabric of society as we know it. I've also noticed that these articles never bother to consider or address the safety concerns of M2F, F2M, cross-dressers, genderqueers, or androgynes using the men's room.

They're really using transgender people as a big scare tactic to raise money, and they obviously don't care if a few of us get queerbashed in the process.

As I sip my coffee, I'm feeling my dormant 80s ACT-UP, Queer Nation, Lesbian Avenger, Transexual Menace, theatrical activist side waking up. I'm envisioning an action, perhaps a "Million Men in Dresses March... on Public Restrooms".

Not women's rooms though. Instead, all of us "men in dresses" would go to the men's room. Hey, we have to go somewhere! We'll pick a day, a week, or perhaps even all of LGBTQ pride month and during that time we "men in dresses" use the men's rooms.

Each and every day. All across the USA.

If you haven't finished electrolysis or laser, consider not shaving for a few days. I suggest wearing high heels, makeup, jewelry, and don't forget, plenty of slinky, non age appropriate, over the top, bright pink clothing too. If you don't pass as your birth sex anymore, you might want to bring along a copy of your original, unaltered birth certificate just in case someone questions why you're in there.

I don't suggest going alone though. Much better if we go in groups for safety concerns. I also wish to be inclusive, so perhaps my FTM friends would consider using the women's room during that time, in solidarity with us. And our LGB and straight allies don't need to feel left out; you are all welcome to participate too.

This is only the beginning. After the bathroom invasion, I'm thinking of applying for a job... in a Christian bookstore or school. I have already picked out my outfit for the job interview.


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Yeah, why not? I've been kind of surprised that the right-wing-fundie-wingnuts hadn't gone after the bathroom issue before now, actually. Given the sorry talking points they have, it's surprising they hadn't stooped to this level previously.

I've heard of a crossdressing molester lurking in a woman's room, in my entire life. Neither were really T, anyway. It's a canard. I've never seen a multiple use women's restroom (outside of locker rooms) that didn't have stall doors. If I'm using a women's washroom, you aren't going to know what's betwixt my legs, unless you're the voyeur. It's BS from the beginning, but it makes a good press story.

As for the part on "what restroom should we use?", you have to remember that, to the fundie wingnuts, we should all go back to being boxer-wearing God-fearing straight male (or female, in F2M cases) pickup-truck driving NASCAR fans. If we'd do that, the problem's over, by their pov.

Sorry, that was supposed to be "never" heard of a crossdressing molester.

Polar, you and I have been in this "business" about the same time, and like you, there I haven't heard of any crossdressing terrorists molesting girls in the restroom. There have never been any. Besides, any real pedophile doesn't need a law to go into women's restrooms to molest children.

The part the fundie nuts don't take into consideration is an FtM forced to use the women's restroom. I'm sure women would freak out if a balding FtM with a full beard walked into the women's room, went into a stall, pulled out his trusty plastic peeing device so he could pee standing, with his feet pointing in the wrong direction for a women's room. That would go over like a led zeppelin.

You bet, Monica.

A few years ago, I got into a discussion with some Reichers outside a hearing. The discussion was quite respectful - I was in ugly mode, and they weren't sure which side I was on - until they got to the "molesters in the ladies' room" argument against T people. I asked them if they wanted guys with beards using the ladies room - of course not. The idea that women would become men, simply blew their minds. Their final argument was "Of course, there shouldn't be people like that out in public in the first place, and they certainly shouldn't be allowed to use public restrooms." My friend, that's where the fundie fools are headed - not using either restroom when in public.

Personally, I'm in favor of flushing fundies, but that would damage public sewer systems.

I'll quote none other than Peter LaBarbera of "Americans for Truth". ENDA: The ‘Transgender Bathrooms for Businesses’ Bill:

For once we agreed with Barney Frank (sort of), at least before he sold out to the “transgender” lobby.

“There are workplace situations — communal showers, for example — when the demands of the transgender community fly in the face of conventional norms and therefore would not pass in any Congress. I’ve talked with transgender activists and what they want — and what we will be forced to defend — is for people with penises who identify as women to be able to shower with other women.”

–Homosexual Congressman Barney Frank (D-Mass.), BEFORE he changed his mind and embraced including “transgenders” in the Employment NonDiscrimination Act (ENDA)

That was of course before he changed his stance again and excluded the T's from ENDA, as he wanted all along.

I'll quote Miranda Stevens-Miller :

"So," I said, "does your support of transgender inclusion in the VAWA mean that you might be changing your mind about inclusion of gender-variant people in ENDA?" An innocent enough question, but you would have thought that I was threatening him with a loaded weapon. He got red in the face and started shouting, "Never." His problem was that until we could answer the question of "people with penises in [women's] showers," there is no way that he would support it. The conversation got rather heated to say the least. And with Barney speaking very loudly and repeatedly about "penises in showers," we attracted a lot of attention in the restaurant.

There was no way to win this argument. In fact, it was déjà vu, recalling a similar conversation we had almost two years ago when Barney was in town for a meeting of the Stonewall Democrats. At that time, it was "men in women's bathrooms." I pointed out to him that while he was discussing urinary rights, I was talking about human rights and employment discrimination. His only come-back was, "What's the matter? You too good to talk about bathrooms?"

This time I was using the argument that the shower issue is really an employee's privacy matter that needed to be dealt with by the employer. Again I contrasted the right to privacy, with the right to hold a job and make a living without fear of discrimination. His only comeback this time was that I didn't know what I was talking about, and that I should stop with all my rhetoric.

If you happen to have the opportunity to speak with him, whether it is at a cocktail party or at a political meeting, please tell him to knock it off! His adolescent preoccupation with genitals is one of the major stumbling blocks in getting federal legislation introduced to protect the gender variant people of America. With his fantasy of penises in showers, he is almost single-handedly holding back the tide of the national gender rights movement.

The basic problem is that, at heart, Berney Frank thinks the Americans For Truth, Focus on the Family etc are right in this one particular area. His heart is not in the fight for rights for T's, and in fact, he's rather embarrassed to be associated with them. He's in good company there, many Gays are, and I won't mention the Raymondite wing of the RadLez movement, whose reaction goes beyond mere embarrassment. Go to the archives here, and you'll see many TS people against bathroom and other rights for the embarrassing TGs, even some T's are not immune to Barney Frankitis.

The numbers of such opponents to T rights within the GLBT movement should not be exaggerated: at most it would be 30%, and even fewer who would be actively rather than passively transphobic. But we don't deal with a problem by pretending it doesn't exist. We need to heal from ENDA, but that means rooting out and ruthlessly dealing with the transphobia within GLBT, not ignoring it and pretending it doesn't exist, nor that it has provided and continues to provide ammunition to our enemies.

The fight in Montgomery county is not one we are guaranteed to win. A vote that specifically targets T's as being unworthy of human rights is but a logical next step from the elimination from ENDA of protection for T's, as was argued at the time. It will embolden our enemies, and result in other, existing ordnances protecting T's to be repealed.

Zoe's right...
We've got to win this one in Montgomery County, Md.

An example of what Zoe wasa talking about was when Ward Connerly (another conservative sellout who I can't stand) was peddling his anti-affirmative action bans with misleading and deceptive wording. African-Amwerican pointed out that they only passed in states or areas with less than a 10% AA population (Washington, California), so he tried to bring it to Houston, which has a 25% AA population.

African-American city council members and our allies forced him to change his deceptive language to an easy to read yes or no question on the issue. He also made the mistake of timing the referendum to when African-American Houstonians were eager and energized to erase the stigma among fellow African-Americans of being the largest city in the US to have not elected an African-American mayor. Lee Brown was on the ballot that year (1999)

Long story short, Ward's ban got swamped by a massive 8-1 African-American vote against it and effectively killed his momentum on the issue for several years until the recent (deceptive language one) in Michigan passed in 2006.

I also had a similar encounter with the Barn here in Atlanta. He started into the same crap that Miranda and hundreds of others faced. I came back with, "By not wanting trans women in a women's showers, then that means we will have balding, hairy trans men who have had top surgery being forced to take showers with women. You think women would want to see a fully transitioned trans man in the shower with them?" His response, "I never though of that." Yeah, that's because he has penises on his mind all the time. I know hundreds of gay men and none of them publicly obsesses as much about penises as he does.

What we need is a Flyer like this. And a website with an appropriate name and the same graphical message.

Zythra, thanks for the witty commentary on the bathroom issue.

Gerri Ladene | June 14, 2008 12:32 PM

Zoe, your Flyer is awesome! As for the shower issue that B.F. keeps bringing up, what's with that one anyway? Personally, I prefer to shower alone, of course there would be the exception of welcome companion! The only issue that I would relate to that would be showers at public swimming pools. What country does B.F. live in anyway? I think it is mainly an issue to be considered for younger Trans in high school through college ages, this does need serious consideration! I agree with Monica that B.F. is fixated on penises, he probably figures that’s one way to prevent sharing them with women, LOL!

When Peter and company start working to keep Republican congressmen out of bathrooms, then I will take them seriously about restroom safety.

Do people actually shower nude in communal showers? At the pool we went to when I was growing up (and I'm only 20) no one, at least in the women's side, showered nude. Most folks showered in their bathing suits, then you either changed in a bathroom stall or with a towel around you.
Before I switched over to using the mens room I kept getting weird looks for using the womens--and I'm not even on hormones yet.
There has been a total of one person who has had issue with me in the mens room. And he already knew I'm trans* and hated me. He's a bigot and a rapist/molester and moreover he was angry with me at the time. So I generally don't put too much stock in hi opinions.

I even used the mens showers in the dorm bathrooms; they have curtains so I saw no need to not use them.

A couple weeks ago, when we were at the movies together a female friend of mine from before I was out attempted to follow me into the mens room...it was very amusing. ^.^

Zoe, I love the poster!! I can think of a number of people who the fundies wouldn't really want to see in the restrooms for their birth biological sex.

Really though, it isn't just about the restrooms. They don't want to see us anywhere at all; teaching their kids in schools, running for government, at the grocery store...

battybattybats battybattybats | June 14, 2008 10:07 PM

Thats a great call their Zoe.
That is a great idea.
Absolutely!

Feel free to publicise the poster. We'd need permission from all the people concerned and copyright holders before printing anything of course. The pictures are just hyperlinks to Lynn Conway's site. The idea, the concept, is good though, and I hereby give permission to any pro-trans group to make use of it, with or without attribution.

We really need to graphically and concisely show what anti-trans bigotry leads to. And just exactly how our opponents are lying.

This is not a substitute for rational argument, we've won that particular battle, and need to continue giving the dry, dusty facts without let-up. But our opponents are mendaciously appealing to emotions, not rationality, and we've let them get away with that unchallenged for too long. We need to fight on that front too. To show that we're not the ones who want Men in the Ladies showers, they are. It helps that it's true, and we can and should show that.

Feel free to publicise the poster. We'd need permission from all the people concerned and copyright holders before printing anything of course. The pictures are just hyperlinks to Lynn Conway's site. The idea, the concept, is good though, and I hereby give permission to any pro-trans group to make use of it, with or without attribution.

This is exactly the sort of thing that causes HBS survivors to object to our inclusion under the so-called "transgender umbrella." All that this would result in is giving the religious right more ammunition to hurt both HBS and transgender people. They would point out that they "are not objecting to post-op transsexuals going into the womens room, just crosdressing men in dresses but now that you mention it, this shows that transsexuals are just part of a larger movement to disrupt things." So, you would not only defeat your own purpose (getting crossdressers into the womens room) you would slander HBS survivors who don't even want to be drawn into your fight.

You know, this brings back memories of my earliest dsys in transition. Those first ventures into the womens room were quite scary. I was not concerned with some abstract right to invade womens space. I just needed to go to the bathroom. My two biggest concerns were not being embarrassed, but more importantly, not offending other women/ Yes, I was more concerned about the women I identifed with than anything else. Part of that was self-serving, since if I did offend them, I would suffer consequnces, but I also was not interested in proving anything other than that I was a woman.

And that is the problem in all of this. HBS people are interested in fitting in, and being a member of the sex they actually should be. Transgender people seem to be more concerned with some abstract right to do what they wish, regardless of who is offended.

I guess, when you come down to it, the reason it is "all about the bathrooms" is that some wish to make that the battleground. And I don't mean the religious right. I mean the transgender activists who wish to push into the ladies room. Really, for FTMs, this is not even an issue. Dragging them into it is a smokescreen that is not going to work

JJ wrote

They would point out that they "are not objecting to post-op transsexuals going into the womens room, just crosdressing men in dresses but now that you mention it, this shows that transsexuals are just part of a larger movement to disrupt things.

JJ - if you could just find me one such site of the religious right that didn't already conflate TS people with Gays and TGs, I'd be most surprised. If you can find one that specifically said they didn't object to post-op TS women using the ladies room, I'd be utterly astounded.

The most common attitude is that post-ops are the very worst kind of Gay. They are criminally insane, and have mutilated themselves - so who's to say they won't mutilate others in their insanity? While "we should treat them with compassion", they should be locked up permanently for the good of society, and for everyone's protection.

OK, it's not universal. Some call for our extermination, even if Gays are allowed to live in celibacy. Pre- and non- Ops, TGs etc may be salvageable after sufficient "praying away the gay", but not us. And the Intersexed are either the spawn of Satan, or should be shut away for the common good. If they believe in their existence. Most don't.

Logic is not their strong suit, and no amount of scientific papers will convince them of the validity of "Evilution" and the Earth not being the centre of the Universe. So what chance does talking about lymbic nuclei and BSTc layers have?

I tried taking your line over at Free Republic. Distinguishing TS from GLB and TG. That's why I joined the select few who were not just banned, but vaporised in the Orwellian sense, every post of mine on every subject deleted. They don't do that to mere Gays.

JJ, and I speak as a conservative and an unabashed neo-con, you are living in a Fool's Paradise. Your arguments may be valid for the majority of conservatives, but for the paleocons who are actively opposing us rather than sitting on the sidelines, they're meaningless.

"mulatto, creole, quadroon or octoroon, "passing as white" or high-yellow, we're all n.....s."

And the very, very worst are those who pass for white. Because by our deception, we can entrap them into Sin.

The most common attitude is that post-ops are the very worst kind of Gay. They are criminally insane, and have mutilated themselves - so who's to say they won't mutilate others in their insanity? While "we should treat them with compassion", they should be locked up permanently for the good of society, and for everyone's protection.

Really? Can you offer one example of web site that says we should be permanently locked up? Just one? I mean, I can't say that they don't exist, but I have never seen anything quite that extreme. Oh, and if the only example you can find is something like Fred Phelp's site, well that would be quite amusing, but not something I would remotely take seriously.

OK, it's not universal. Some call for our extermination, even if Gays are allowed to live in celibacy. Pre- and non- Ops, TGs etc may be salvageable after sufficient "praying away the gay", but not us. And the Intersexed are either the spawn of Satan, or should be shut away for the common good. If they believe in their existence. Most don't.

Oh, please show me at least one example of this also. That would be most interesting. Again, I am aware of none that exist, but if they do, I would certainly like to know about it. And definitely, I would like to see one that calls Intersexed the "spawn of Satan" or that suggests that they should be shut away for the common good. Ot that denies their existence. I mean, I have to say, this is getting quite good.

Oh, and while you are at it, please show me a web site where they claim that the Earth is not the center of the universe. I mean, I am willing to concede the evolution thing. That is well established, but the rest of this is rather interesting.... Total crap, I would imagine, but quite interesting.

Oh, and if web sites are not available, feel free to post scans of documents from these groups somewhere.

Now, let's apply a little logic... Let's say that someone spots a post-op and decides that they are "really" a man. They make a fuss. So, what is going to happen, other than the post-op being a bit embarrassed? Well, in some cases, I can imagine the post-op doing something foolish, like making a big deal out of being transgender, and how their right to go to the ladies room is being violated, etc., etc., etc. That would not be a very smart move...and would, of course, just make things worse. But let's suppose they keep their cool.

Now, for the sake of argument, security comes and detains the person. The police are called. The first thing that would probably happen would be that they check the person's ID. Now, unless that person has failed to have their ID changed, that should be the end of it. The ID says 'F' and the police should be apologizing, and perhaps hinting to the person that they might want to talk to a lawyer about suing someone. But let's imagine that the person either doesn't have ID handy. They are taken into custody, and at the police station, they are "examined." WHOOPS!!!! They don't have a penis, they have a vagina. The police are very apologetic. They are now the ones concerned with being sued. They are falling all over themsevles trying to find some way of keeping the person from doing something drastic.

Now, as I say, please stop trying to drag corrected HBS women into this. Many, if not most want no part of the efforts of crossdressers and such to force their way into women's space.

And and your remarks show why I don't care for the word "pass" or that entire concept. I am not "passing" as I am not trying to be something I am not. I am a woman. Period. Not a transgender woman, or even a transwoman. Just a woman. Albeit, a woman who has survived HBS. At the same time, I am also a woman with diabetes. That affects my life far more than HBS does, and I don't go around making a big deal out of it, either.

JJ, I don't bookmark all this stuff, but I'll see what I can find in a few minutes:
This one as a starter for 10.

Please tell me why I should read anything pertaining to your ambiguous,Androgynous unfortunate calamity? Really If I had my way I would exterminate all of you..
He moderated his tone later, calling for quarantine rather than extermination..
I refuse to sugar coat every word for the politically correct crowd. I’m not running for any type of office here, I just love how all of you are trying to divert these people’s sickness for sympathy and diagnoses.

The bottom line is these people should be quarantined. Maybe you want them as your role model, but I sure as hell don’t. Your probably the same deranged people who are pro-choice.

You wanna know what’s wrong with America? People like you.
...
The point I’m trying to make here is, or though it is unfortunate that these types of people were born with there condition, for a healthy society to exist they must be segregated, along with the queers and etc.
...
I stand by what I said in the name of every healthy civilization. What I prescribe is a cheap and effective solution to deal with the dangers of the lifestyle that these people display.

If any of you suggest that we ought to ship them to some island giving them the opportunity to live or die by there own hands, then I will agree to this so long as we wash our hands of them once they get dropped off there.

If you feel the need to send gifts there fine, but don’t tell me I or anyone should be required to do the same.

To insist that these types of people should be treated equally is erroneous. And to allow them to be amongst young healthy impressionable children is a sin.

You may not like what I have to say, but it is the truth. You people who support these people are underminingly destroying a healthy moral society.


Enough, I've wasted too much time on this already. Do some googling on Free Republic, within the "Homosexual Agenda" section if you want.

People like this exist.

I'll also repeat a call I made before:

JJ - if you could just find me one such site of the religious right that didn't already conflate TS people with Gays and TGs, I'd be most surprised. If you can find one that specifically said they didn't object to post-op TS women using the ladies room, I'd be utterly astounded.
No more changing the subject, moving the goalposts etc. Just give me one of each, before saying anything else please.

I'll quote the latest from CitizenLink :

Cain Davis, chairman of Citizens for Good Public Policy, said Gainesville, Fla., appears to be the latest battlefront.

“Basically, if a person feels like (the) sex opposite of that in which they were born, they have the legal right to utilize a facility of the sex in which they feel," he said.

Nothing about Pre- or Post-op there. It's all about what sex was originally put on your BC, not your actual anatomy. The omission is deliberate.

Davis said gay and "transgendered" activists have launched a coordinated effort.

“They basically count down, 'OK, we’ve gotten that city, we’ve gotten that county, what’s the next one?' That’s the process they’ve been using for years.”

That is correct, yes. Apart from the "activists" bit. It's been almost entirely a TS effort, helped by Lambda Legal. Almost no Gays or TGs involved. As for the HRC? It is to laugh.

There are repeal efforts under way in Maryland and Iowa, but Jenny Tyree, associate marriage analyst for Focus on the Family Action, said the gay lobby is likely to put pressure on more cities and states.

Funny, I don't notice some sudden huge outpouring of support amongst the gay community on this issue. Most aren't even aware of it. It would be nice to have a "gay lobby" backing us up, but that's been noticeably absent.

“These laws put women and children at risk in places of public accommodation — places where they should feel safe," she said.

Doug Stiegler, executive director of the Association of Maryland Families, said concerned Americans may have to "start locking bathrooms so your granddaughter or your daughter is safe.”


I think that irrationality says it all.

Don't think this is a matter of ignorance: they have been made aware of the medical facts about HBS repeatedly. They just don't care. Try writing to them yourself, as I have done. See what kind of reply you get. Deafening silence, and the same old same old. You may not want to believe that, that women like you are considered mutilated gay men, fetishists and perverts, but their deliberate omissions on the issue speak volumes.

Find one, just one, that makes a distinction between post-op TS women and Gays, and I'll gladly retract. Just one. But until then, your opinions are irrelevant to the issue at hand. They dare not make any distinction as it undermines the case, it's far more effective to demonise all of us, regardless of the facts.

You may agree with them that TGs should not be given these human rights. But don't believe for a second that your existing rights won't be repealed too. And that includes the right to a correct Birth Certificate, a right still not enjoyed in several states.

It's easy to view all ones opponents as evil. It makes life easier, and you don't have to bother thinking, or considering that they may not be 100% wrong, nor you 100% right. Usually, those against you are quite reasonable, and although they may disagree on the weight of various evidence, they don't deliberately lie and distort out of pure hatred. Just look at the hundreds of comments and letters I've written on the California Catholic Journal and other bastions of conservatism. Reasoned debate is usually possible.

But not with these people. You must recognise unreasoning malice when you see it. It's rare, but it exists.

Catholic Geocentricism More Geocentricism. Yet more Geocentricism. Even more Geocentricism.

From Alternet:

Variants of such views apparently can be found in the Texas State legislature and, in 1999, Tom Willis --head of the Mid-Atlantic Creation Research Association-- was " intrumental in revising the Kansas elementary school curriculum to remove references to evolution, earth history, and science methodology". Willis was also a "geocentrist" and wrote, in 2000, a bold manifesto for both Young-Earth Creationism and Geocentrism:

"...all experiments to demonstrate that the earth moves at all have failed. All seem to indicate the earth does not move at all. There is much evidence that the earth is young and cannot possibly be millions, much less billions of years old but we will not treat that herein.... The Bible does not say that the earth is at the center of the universe. But, anyone looking up can see that the sun, planets and stars are moving. Galileo argued that this motion was relative, that really the earth was spinning and it only looks like these other objects move. But, both the observations and the Bible indicate quite strongly that the earth does not move." - Tom Willis

And much more...

JJ, as a neo-conservative (the type that believes in science, rationality, actions not words etc) I tussle with these paleocons every day. They just believe the literal word of the Bible trumps science, and for them I quote Matthew 19:12 and Isaiah 56:3-5, and ask them to treat the words literally, as they do everywhere else. I Corinthians 13 is also a goodie.

From Melissa Cull on being Intersexed:

Mostly people are OK, however I had one boss (a research nurse of all people!) who called me a freak when she found out. She said, "I'm not working with you, you should be exterminated." I had to leave and the stress brought on an adrenal crisis.

You should get out more. Find out what many dare not put on their websites for fear of looking like, well, what they are. The Hypocrisy is astounding.

Darn, I should let this drop, I'm being side-tracked again. Over to you, for a single Religious Right website that distinguishes between post-op and Gay.

"This is exactly the sort of thing that causes HBS survivors to object to our inclusion under the so-called "transgender umbrella." All that this would result in is giving the religious right more ammunition to hurt both HBS and transgender people. They would point out that they "are not objecting to post-op transsexuals going into the womens room, just crosdressing men in dresses but now that you mention it, this shows that transsexuals are just part of a larger movement to disrupt things." So, you would not only defeat your own purpose (getting crossdressers into the womens room) you would slander HBS survivors who don't even want to be drawn into your fight."

Jennifer,

First thing. This piece is satirical, I'm simply pointing out glaring holes in the arguments of our detractors.

Secondly, the religious reich don't make distinctions between cross dressers, drag queens, transgender, pre or post op transsexuals or HBS. As far as they're concerned, we're all deviants. They continually lump us together regardless of your wish to be separate from transgender.

Thirdly, I mean absolutely no disrespect to HBS women or anyone else. I wish for ALL women to be able to use public restrooms without being harassed by men. And if I, as a male bodied, non binary gender person, go to use the men's restroom, I also need to be able to do so safely.

Enough, I've wasted too much time on this already. Do some googling on Free Republic, within the "Homosexual Agenda" section if you want.

People like this exist.

So, as I suspected, you can't produce any serious website that actually takes that view. Oh, of course, anonymous people, hiding behind pseudonyms while making comments on blogs will say all sorts of outrageous things. But no actual groups making such suggestions? Didn't think so. And I like the little "I've wasted too much time on this..." Nice touch. Sort of net-speak for "I can't find what you requested, but I'll be darned if I'll concede the point!"

And my point was that you simply got carried away with a bit of hyperbole. Not unlike the people you cite on that website, who made some equally outrageous remarks.

No, there is no concerted effort to exterminate us.

Basically, if a person feels like (the) sex opposite of that in which they were born, they have the legal right to utilize a facility of the sex in which they feel.

Now, I note that this does not specifically mention "post-op." On the other hand, I also note that it specifically says "if a person feels like (the) sex opposite that in which they were born..." Hmmm, I think you would have to concede that there is a difference between feeling, and being. Yes, the above would include pre-op transsexuals, but certainly not post-ops, since, as I previously pointed out, they are physically different. I do agree that the omission is deliberate, but not for the reason you want to suggest. The omission is deliberate because they want to avoid that entire issue. They want to argue about males, with penises, invading the women's room.

It's been almost entirely a TS effort, helped by Lambda Legal. Almost no Gays or TGs involved.

Huh? First off, Lamba Legal is first and foremost a gay organization. Second, I don't know where you get that it has been a "TS" effort. It has been a transgender effort. The groups behind these efforts identify as transgender, not transsexual. That is what this is all about. Most transsexuals work on presentation, make a few hesitant trips in, become comfortable with things, and get on with their lives, and forget the whole mess. And once they are post-op, it is not an issue at all.

Now, I do agree that many fall silent when faced with medical facts, simply because they have no response.

No, I agree, they don't make a distinction between post-ops and transgender people. They simply do exactly what the transgender types wish for them to do...they conflate us. They simply follow the example of every transgender activist group and repeat the same misinformation spread by every transgender activist given the opportunity. They simply do exactly what you did in your poster. They ignore the differences. Not because they seek to ban corrected HBS women from women's bathrooms. They know they can't do that. They do it because as long as they leave us out, they can make things simpler. Corrected HBS women are not really as issue at all. That was my original point, which you so blithely ignore. We are NOT an issue. So why would you want to use us to further an issue we have no stake in? Why would you want to drag us into this fight? If you make corrected HBS women an issue, then yes, we stand to lose rights we have secured. Because if you drag us into this fight, we will come onto their radar more and more. Until relatively recently, we were not even mentioned. Neither were transgender people. But once transgender became a part of LGBT, they became an issue. Now, the more you make corrected HBS women a part of something we want to left out of, the more we are targeted by your enemies, who previously had no interest in us.

Basically, if a person feels like (the) sex opposite of that in which they were born, they have the legal right to utilize a facility of the sex in which they feel.

Now, I note that this does not specifically mention "post-op." On the other hand, I also note that it specifically says "if a person feels like (the) sex opposite that in which they were born..." Hmmm, I think you would have to concede that there is a difference between feeling, and being. Yes, the above would include pre-op transsexuals, but certainly not post-ops, since, as I previously pointed out, they are physically different. I do agree that the omission is deliberate, but not for the reason you want to suggest. The omission is deliberate because they want to avoid that entire issue. They want to argue about males, with penises, invading the women's room.

It's been almost entirely a TS effort, helped by Lambda Legal. Almost no Gays or TGs involved.

Huh? First off, Lamba Legal is first and foremost a gay organization. Second, I don't know where you get that it has been a "TS" effort. It has been a transgender effort. The groups behind these efforts identify as transgender, not transsexual. That is what this is all about. Most transsexuals work on presentation, make a few hesitant trips in, become comfortable with things, and get on with their lives, and forget the whole mess. And once they are post-op, it is not an issue at all.

Now, I do agree that many fall silent when faced with medical facts, simply because they have no response.

No, I agree, they don't make a distinction between post-ops and transgender people. They simply do exactly what the transgender types wish for them to do...they conflate us. They simply follow the example of every transgender activist group and repeat the same misinformation spread by every transgender activist given the opportunity. They simply do exactly what you did in your poster. They ignore the differences. Not because they seek to ban corrected HBS women from women's bathrooms. They know they can't do that. They do it because as long as they leave us out, they can make things simpler. Corrected HBS women are not really as issue at all. That was my original point, which you so blithely ignore. We are NOT an issue. So why would you want to use us to further an issue we have no stake in? Why would you want to drag us into this fight? If you make corrected HBS women an issue, then yes, we stand to lose rights we have secured. Because if you drag us into this fight, we will come onto their radar more and more. Until relatively recently, we were not even mentioned. Neither were transgender people. But once transgender became a part of LGBT, they became an issue. Now, the more you make corrected HBS women a part of something we want to left out of, the more we are targeted by your enemies, who previously had no interest in us.

The simple fact, which some wish to ignore, is that the religious right generally tries to avoid the issue of corrected HBS women. They know they can't win that fight. For example, here it the text from one web site that features a well known transgender activist as an example of the sort of "man" they wish to keep out of the ladies room. They say, "In other words, anyone–regardless of their biological identity–will be welcome in the men’s or ladies’ room, including cross-dressers, men who self-identify as women, women who self-identify as men, and people who haven’t made up their minds." Funny, it says nothing about post-ops being a problem. This is typical... On, and the site can be found at http://americansfortruth.com/news/frc-takes-on-colorado-transgender-bathroom-bills.html

This is why I would object to trying to drag corrected HBS women into this fight. It is yours, not ours.

First thing. This piece is satirical, I'm simply pointing out glaring holes in the arguments of our detractors.

Secondly, the religious reich don't make distinctions between cross dressers, drag queens, transgender, pre or post op transsexuals or HBS. As far as they're concerned, we're all deviants. They continually lump us together regardless of your wish to be separate from transgender.

Thirdly, I mean absolutely no disrespect to HBS women or anyone else. I wish for ALL women to be able to use public restrooms without being harassed by men. And if I, as a male bodied, non binary gender person, go to use the men's restroom, I also need to be able to do so safely.

I'm sorry if it was not clear, but my remarks were in reference specifically to the suggested poster and campaign. That is what I find so highly objectionable. The very idea of employing post-op women in such a manner is, to me, unthinkable. Personally, if I were one of the women who had her picture featured on that web site, I would be contacting a lawyer and pursuing a lawsuit for the misuse of my image.

This has become an ongoing argument. Transgender activists wish to co-opt the lives and experiences of HBS women for their own purposes, and many of us are very fed up with it.

The concept of HBS women being distinct and different from your "garden variety" transsexual person is just as big a load of crap as the concept of autogynophilia! What a waste of brain waves! HBS women are no better or different than any other transsexual person except for possibly their sexual orientation so don't go getting all high and mighty on us, that makes you no better than the fundi loonys that would rather shoot us than give us basic human rights. JJ, do you think that your rights are more important than mine? I had all the same rights and responsibilities that any so called "normal" person has until I came out as transgendered. I can now be discriminated against based on that one small part of who I am, and you're no different. Either we all have basic human rights, or none of us do. Do you really think you can hide your birth identity from the government if they choose to lump you in with the rest of us trans people? Pull your head out of the sand and look around you. To them, you're just another one of us!