Monica Roberts

Damned If We Do - Damned If We Don't

Filed By Monica Roberts | August 06, 2008 3:00 PM | comments

Filed in: Living, Living, Marriage Equality, Transgender & Intersex
Tags: hate crimes against LGBT people, Monica Roberts, relationships, transgender issues

In the wake of the Angie Zapata killing in Greeley last week, the debate raging in the blogosphere and beyond that has emerged since her tragic and untimely death has depended on who's doing the interpretation of it.

black men women.jpgFor non-transgender people, we've heard the ludicrous "she 'deceived' Allen Andrade, so he was somehow justified in killing" her spin on many comments. Some can't even get the pronouns right, or are doing it to be disrespectful or sensationalist.

In the transgender community, the discussion has been all over the map. I had two of my young TransGriot readers take me to task over the dating safety post I wrote Saturday because they felt, in their words, it was 'condescending to young transwomen' and 'insensitive to Angie's memory' because of the timing of it, even though that wasn't my intent when I wrote it.

One point Megan was correct about was that I didn't highlight the core dilemma of all transwomen who embark upon establishing a satisfying romantic relationship with biomen: to tell or not to tell.

We transpeople agree with our biobrothers and biosisters that the logical and sensible thing to do in an ideal world and an ideal dating situation would be to just simply reveal your transgender status at a certain juncture in the courtship process. In our intracommunity discussions we've agreed that point would usually be just before getting intimate with that person. By doing so, you would give that person the option of staying or going.

But in the real world it's not that black and white. The dilemma we face and the questions we ask ourselves are - when is that point? What will be the bioman's reaction when you do tell him you're a transwoman and will you have a relationship, much less be alive, after you reveal that personal bombshell?

It doesn't matter when or where she tells him, once she reveals the deep secret about herself, she's damned if she does and damned if she doesn't. She's also putting her life in jeopardy if or when she does.

If she follows conventional wisdom and she's fortunate, the worst she'll get on the lower end of the scale is getting embarrassed if she's out in public when she tells him because the guy cursed her out before storming off.

On the other end of the scale that far too many transwomen experience, is a violent reaction that ranges from a simple beatdown to murder. That is consistent irregardless of the transwoman's age, ethnicity, social status or whether she's pre/non-op or post-op. Even marriage won't protect you if you make the revelation to the wrong person. There was a case a few years ago in which a post-op transwoman came clean to her husband and was subsequently found dead.

The other problem is that once you disclose you're a transwoman, as far as some biomen are concerned, you may as well wear a scarlet 'T' embroidered on your clothing. If you don't, they will damned sure create a virtual scarlet letter for you since they will tell all their homies and a few of their biofemale friends for good measure.

So even if you show up in the club one night looking so fly you make all the biowomen in it look like your ugly stepsisters to your Cinderella, you not only won't be getting any play from the fellas if just one biomale or biofemale is around who knows your business. By the time they've finished spreading the news, in some cases you'll be getting dissed by some of the biomen and biowomen hanging out in that nightspot severely enough to make you leave.

So what's a transwoman to do who's not into GLBT clubs, who's looking for love but also wants to survive the process as well?

While there are biomen who do wish to date us, want us as life partners, and will be perfect gentlemen about it, there are others- the 'tranny chasers' as we call them in the transgender community- whose perceptions of us are colored by too much exposure to transsexual porn sites. Get one of them on a date, and they treat you like a porn star or an object instead of a human being with feelings.

If you are a Latina, African-American or Asian transwoman, that problem is even more acute because much of the transgender porn disseminated these days disproportionately features transwomen of color.

For a transwoman, finding true love can be as elusive as an NBA playoff spot for the LA Clippers. But even the Clippers make the NBA playoffs from time to time. The trick for us is to find that true love without losing our lives in the process.

And sometimes, to avoid living the rest of their lives alone, some of my sisters will take that chance. If they find a guy they like, they'll cross that disclosure bridge when they come to it.

So we're damned if we do tell- damned if we don't.

Crossposted from TransGriot


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Tell them from the very beginning....then let them decide. It's wrong to decieve people...its that simple!!

Excellent article! You covered the important parts of this issue . . . for the straight trans women. These are things that need to be brought up to the younger generation stepping into the adult dating scene. Dating for non-trans women can be an Indiana Jones adventure at best and Friday the 13th at its worse. Add "transgender" to the mix and some men think you are a zombie from Night of the Living Dead.

Now, maybe it would be interesting to get a viewpoint on "Lesbian Dating for a Trans Women." I can probably handle that.

Dave,

Do you tell every guy/woman you're interested the most intimate personal details of your life within the first few minutes of meeting them? Get real!

This is a very complex issue to all transwomen and it's the ultimate catch-22 - Never, ever an easy issue.

BTW, I do tell guys very early on (meaning before serious intimacy), but always via the phone or a message. I don't want to be in the vicinity while they absorb it - it's just too darn risky.

So Audrey, you make out with them and stuff before you tell them?? "BTW, I do tell guys very early on (meaning before serious intimacy), " Isnt that deceving them and wouldnt they have a right to be mad if/and when they found out? Im just asking not acusing...so please dont jump on me..

We gay guys have similar issues with HIV status when to disclose, etc...I have friends who tell when they meet and friends who do alot physically but play safe...then if it goes further they disclose...

Midtowner,
I think the difference is that gay men understand HIV and telling them you are positive doesn't get you killed. Even if we hold hands with a bigot straight guy before we know he's a bigot, he can go off on us in a heartbeat when he finds out. HIV status between gay men is not even in the same league as a trans woman dating straight men. Yes, you have to tell, but the other man probably won't beat the crap out of you when he finds out. Audrey has the right idea.

Nichole Weberring | August 6, 2008 5:18 PM

I've already commented at Trans Griot & have written my own blog here http://radnichole.wordpress.com/ about how I feel.

The presumption is always that "the guy didn't know." That crap is just so drummed into us it becomes THE explanation. First thing we think, whether we are trans, gay, lesbian, straight.

The notion that Trans women are deceptive is one played long and hard by the media: all of it from CNN to The Crying Game.

This is one woman who's just truly tired of. This character Andrade KNEW and he was fine with it at the time. It was after he spent the day in her apartment thinking about how the homies would find out or how she'd go "tell the world" that he decided to kill her.

Hopefully the 1st degree charges filed today will stick, tight.

For those who are certain he didn't know? We'll I have some nice property on the N.C-VA line in Southhampton Co. I'll seel you. Nevermind what the natives try to tell you, the Great Dismal Swamp is a perfect vacation home site.

Hey Monica,

I agree with you, your right there is a difference. Yay, we agree :-).

Just curious, again not accusing...isnt not telling from the get go deceptive? Should'nt the "straight guy" know that he is making out with or holding hands with a trans woman before hand and then he can make his decision?? I can see where this might anger someone...But of course not to the point of violence....

@ dave: the bio man or bio woman already made a decision him- or herself by falling in love with a person (who can be transperson). There is nothing wrong about that! Why can't he/she trust his/her feelings?

BTW there is a lot of gossip in the LGBTQ community too.

Midtowner,
I dated men in the early years of living in Monica. I policy that if a straight man wanted to date me, before I would hold his hand, I would tell him. I even went to straight nightclubs and danced with straight men. Some knew, some I had to tell and in some cases, it didn't matter. However, I never had a straight man as a boyfriend. I did date trannie chasers, and many of them consider themselves as straight and others said they were bi. But, no matter what orientation they had, they only were looking for one thing, "The Best-of-Both-Worlds" creature. I didn't fit that bill, because hormones makes the penis less functionable.

Dave and Midtowner - Are you talking specifically about pre-/non-op trans women or all trans women?

I think "deception" implies some level of malice on the part of the trans woman and I don't believe that's usually the case when it comes to not disclosing right away. I see it more as a matter of expectations - most straight men expect that their female partners have vaginas. If a woman doesn't have one, that's definitely something that should be disclosed before things get sexual. I don't think kissing or holding hands inevitably leads to sex so I don't see a need to discuss it before then.

I personally think things get much murkier when it comes to post-op trans women. In that case, the woman is going to physically meet the man's expectations when it comes to sex, so I don't think disclosure prior to sex is necessary. If things become more serious and a relationship develops, then I think disclosure is entirely up to the trans woman and would rate about the same as any other serious (non-communicable) medical issue...especially where the woman is unable to conceive and/or bear children.

The only way I can see it as "deception" is if someone doesn't consider a trans woman a "real" woman.

Jesster,
You don't seem to understand. There are plenty of recorded situations where a post-op has been beaten up or killed when the man found out. Some didn't even had sex with them. It has nothing to do with "physically" meeting a man's expectations. It has to do with narrow-minded men who don't even care if a post-op has a vagina. They still consider them "men." No ifs, ands or buts about it. If it's happened to other post-ops in the past, then it can - and will - happen again. Does any post-op want to be the next victim? I don't think so.

It would be good to do over the phone, but not as a "tell him and wait for a reaction" kind of thing or an off-hand comment. A discussion of some sort needs to be initiated. I would personally prefer it somewhere between kissing and making out.

1. On disclosure, I still maintain that telling is up to a person's discretion. But what is absolutely crucial is knowing who you're talking to. When trans stuff is in the news (the "pregnant man," the civil rights fights in Maryland, Colorado and Gainesville), it can usually be safely brought up in casual conversation as a way to see how a person will react to the subject (bring it up neutrally, -- i.e. you express no opinion -- or you could out yourself just from that). Before that, get to know how liberal he is on other civil rights issues, GLB, racial, feminism, workplace equality. If he's closed-minded to key parts of these or a majority, he's a timebomb, and you've got to run.

If he seems pretty liberal, it's not a guarantee he'll accept. But it improves the odds considerably.

2) Disclosing can also get you killed, and it doesn't even have to be from someone you've been intimately involved with. I had a piece of artwork on display in a gallery, described as the experience of being transsexual, and from that, someone decided to track down my address, bring a posse and teach me a lesson.

So yeah, say you disclose it in a public place, maybe a bar, and he goes and tells his buddies, after he's stormed away. Are you safe?

I wish people would stop acting like it's a bloody absolute.

Mercedes,
Death is absolute. One example is one too many, and there are too many. If one fails to act with safety in mind, then they may not get the chance to fail a second time. Yeah, it IS absolute. When you have read off hundreds of names at every Transgender Day of Remembrance since 2000, then discretion be damned.

My position is and always has been that my surgical history is nobody's business.

There's even a law that expressly states that.

the very argument over disclosure itself says, point blank, that for those to whom it matters, there is something being kept secret.

That is, the very discussion says, in no uncertain terms, that we transwomen are not women.

Women do not need to disclose *their* surgical history, and I will not, ever, buy into that sickening morass of cisprivilege that says I am not a woman.

Sorry. That position does not endear me to many, and I have before and will again cause many fights and arguments over that position.

I say that there *is no* right time. Not at the beginning, not before sex, not after sex.

There is no universal rule -- and I resent the statement that implies I tacitly agree to be considered as anything less than a woman on the basis of my surgeries.

But my resentment is my problem.

i say that no two people are alike, and that no situation between two people is going to be alike, and that *ONLY* those two people can ever know what is right or wrong about their decisions.

Yeah, I have relationships. Yes, they know. Because I opted to let them know.

"deception" -- that a tactic used to blame the victim. In order to be deceived, you have to be told something other than the truth.

I am a woman. Not an *almost* woman, not a partial woman, not a vague and scary maybe woman.

If I tell you that, I am not deceiving.

If you later come to question that, that's *your* preconceptions deceiving you, not mine.

It is not an absolute. SOmetimes a person will want to tell. Sometimes at the beginning, sometimes in the middle, sometimes at the end, and, sometimes, never.

None of those decisions are wrong. Ever.

What's wrong is saying any of them are.

Regarding the statistics:

yes. I've stood there on the DoR and read my names and cried.

And I work for a halfway house that deals only in transfolk. Not in GLBT, just trans. It is the only one in the nation.

our target audience is at risk women and men. Who are the people that show up on DoR's more often than not.

Wanna know something? They disclose. And they still end up there.

disclosure as a concept is wrong.

Fascinating discussion. I tend to agree with Jesster.

No one here is saying Trans Women arent real women, however we live in a world that has lots of issues. To deny that and try to live in an alternate world where things like this dont matter can be deadly. Yes I wish things were different where what your were born into and before surgeries didnt matter, seriously I wish this...But the reality is that right now to many (unfortunately) it does. And no when deception is brought up its not meant as the trans woman is doing it out of malice, we know the reasons, companionship, love, etc...

Im just reading how some want the world to be different and they'll be damned if its not and they are going to ignore certain realities and pretend as it not an issue. This is not a difference of opinion where someone may get mad, its not the same as other issues because unfortunately violence is so often the outcome.

I wish only the safety and well being of my trans sisters and brothers when I write this...

I have to say that I have been reading this as an outside observer: My ex-partner is trans, but we were friends long before we were a couple, so disclosure was never an issue.

IMHO, I think that you are all making good points. I agree with all of you, because even when you give different opinions, just the fact that this conversations is happening is going to save lives and prevent broken hearts.

I, personally, would follow the safety rules that Monica wrote, if I were new to the dating scene--at any age and for any reason (like maybe the end of a long-term relationship). Blind dates can be dangerous and it is better safe than sorry.

I also very much liked what Mercedes had to say; with trans issues in the news so much, it is an easy way to get an idea of how a potential partner feels, and if it is strongly negative, once can always make a polite reason to break things off without disclosing.

I, too, strongly object to the word "deception" if someone choices not to disclose: To "deceive", by definition means to lie. I also agree with Dys that it is a private medical issue. Speaking as someone who has serious medical issues that are not obvious to most people who meet me casually, I understand how she feels about giving out personal medical information to some one who may never "need" to know (people do break up before sex is an issue).

The internet has vastly complicated the issue of how much to tell someone before you meet in person; people seem to forget that it is still a blind date, if you have only met online, and unlike blind dates set up by someone you know, you have no persnal reference to go on. The paradox is that when people have been IMing, E-mailing, texting and chatting, people can get to feel like they know whether they have connected enough to want meet in a fairly short time, and believe they know each other better than they do. For that reason, and because meeting on line can easily lead to hook-ups, I strongly feel that if one is pre-op or non-op the safest thing to do is to disclose before meeting someone you met online in person. If they can't deal with it, then at least you have not wasted any more time and energy on it, and have let them know from a safe distance.

Gerri Ladene | August 7, 2008 8:09 AM

I stared to reply to someone else’s comment when I started on this, but I think I will leave her to her own guilt based oppression of self in trying to diminish another human being by trying to play off the shared guilt in this. The blame should go to the root of all this, the discriminating bigotry that infects our society like a virus and the individual who committed this horrible crime.

A quote out of last weekends The Sunday Metro, UK, “A furious dupe has been accused of murder with a fire extinguisher after discovering a woman who gave him oral sex was born a man. Allen Ray Andrade allegedly battered Justin Zapata to death in a fury after discovering the truth. He had believed the partner he picked up online was a woman known as Angie Zapata.” There will never be a truth told about what actually was said, given that the only witness to the crime who was present is the murderer.

Hmmm, is this responsible reporting from the UK or more like sensationalism to sell papers? A furious homicidal dunce would be more rightly descriptive of Andrade. One would surmise that if the murderer Andrade were duped that this gave him some unnatural right to end life then and there.

On a comment made by, I’ll leave his name out, on another Blog: In which he repeatedly referred to Angie as Transgendered and not a Transgender. I asked him how he would like to be referred to as Gayed or Homosexualed. And to further show his ignorance he made the following comment “Where I take issue is in the fact that Justin "Angie" Zapata was living a lie by stating that she was a female, when in reality she wasn't, no matter how much she wanted to be, no matter how much she felt that she was a female; the sad reality is that she was not a female and could never be a female.” So why does this ignoramus continue to refer to her as “she”, obviously he hasn’t a clue since she did in fact live full time in her gender?

This is a religion based social bias which is nothing more than bigotry. So, buy this reasoning any TS who choose stealth should fearfully guard the secret of her biological past from any lover or husband; else the deception might lead to physical harm, homicide, murder 1 by their very admission!

Sisters fear of their lives? Of course they do! They’ve been given acceptance if they pass only to live in fear of exposure at any given time and see their world come crashing in! That is unless they have been honest enough to admit to their past without shame which is the aim of all those who remain vocal and speak truth to lies! If they feel the partner they have chosen is compassionate and understanding enough of a human being to risk the truth and this does happen. Some work up to this point yet so many realize their admission would lead their partner into feeling DUPED, as expressed by the UK Metro, and react in much the same manner as Andrade and be caused physical harm or worse as in the terrible killing of Angie Zapata. Even without a penis, a post-op transsexual woman is still at risk.

The big “WHAT IF I TOLD HIM THE TRUTH”, given the intolerance taught by unethical opinionated male concepts prevalent in this society based on an monolithic institutionalized religious deception, they would rather lie and hope for the best has become the post-op stealth way and to not go all the way in disclosure is the choice young Angie Zapata choose and I consider that choice hers! The circumstance of Andrade finding her out by her leaving him at her apartment was an unfortunate choice of a young mind wanting to have love in her life, not to have her life taken. Knowing the strong Catholic prejudice promoted by the church that is Rome it is no wonder that something of this nature happens more often in the Latino community where Trans are at higher risk. The shameful effect of a religions history that gets its power by promoting irrational fear!

The power of needing love in ones life is very overwhelming; this should not be considered as careless on Angies or on any other young person’s behalf, most likely she was just being cordial to her new lover! The fact is it was Andrades prejudice on finding her out by going thru her belongings that bought on his admitted hatred of her, at least as he ascertains. If he was so distraught, as he claimed over the fact of her biologic sex he should have just left and cut off contact with her, instead he choose premeditated murder, in some distorted way convincing himself that he had justification to do so. He had no right to take her life; no one has the right to do what he claims he did out of his own presumed embarrassment and following claimed fury!

The blame for this and every other murder that has taken place from this so-called excuse is based in religious induced phobic fraud of the indoctrinated, it has no basis except to promote hatred and fear of those who do no harm. Until this deception is dealt with caution should always be a major concern for all Trans.

Angie never enjoyed the opportunity to learn more about this supposed straight man, she might have very well cut things off before they got anymore serious if she had known how he would react! The sad fact of life for most young Transgender females is they don’t enjoy the freedom of social interaction early on like there biological female age group does in order to develop the needed social skill to make serious judgments on relationships not to mention the stigma that attaches itself.

Yes, SoC requires one to lie and live in stealth and keep the secret. This is a cause of guilt and shame in T’s to be made to feel less than real person during times in their life that they would have to lie and claim to be a sterile female and then sweat it out over being found out thru an adoption agency by bureaucratic background checks. There are many examples that those who follow everything that affects themselves and other transgender individuals can relate too when it comes to discriminatory events of life and the consequences. Allot of similar discrimination exists for the entire “LGB” community and that is why we have a “T” on the end of this community’s acronym for divided we fail! This institutionalized phobia must be dealt with in order for anyone to live life to its fullest in the security that they are equal with all others and not be marginalized!

The main point to make is the reality of discrimination which has no right to exist in a free society and the need to confront this is the unifying adhesive of the LGB+T community.

So Audrey, you make out with them and stuff before you tell them?? "BTW, I do tell guys very early on (meaning before serious intimacy), " Isnt that deceving them and wouldnt they have a right to be mad if/and when they found out? Im just asking not acusing...so please dont jump on me..

We gay guys have similar issues with HIV status when to disclose, etc...I have friends who tell when they meet and friends who do alot physically but play safe...then if it goes further they disclose...

Dont know were post 21 came from, that was from yesterday and has been discussed...

Midtowner,

You are correct. No one is saying that. But it is the implication inherent in the conversation -- whether they say it or not.

It is the subtextual presence, the elephant in the room. In sociology, you learn to listen deeply.

I may have to explain that more fully at some point.

Dception implies that there is some falsehood, some lie. To be deceiving there is a lie there. what is the lie in this case? That they are not women?

I understand the safety issues. Risk management and all that. I am very glad for your concern.

I am not pretending the world is not a cruel, uncaring, unfair place full of twits and bigots and idiots.

I am simply not being afraid of them, nor am I letting them or their *potential* reactions dictate my life and the way I live it.

that's how I was raised, and there are racial reasons for that. Its how I move forward in my life.

I'm 43. I've got two big hurdles for me, personally, in my transition.

I'm tired of being afraid, and someone needs to not be.

And I'm still tired of cissgender privilege.

This has nothing to do with how we view ourselves. "I am a real female, so I don't have to tell." It's not what others have said in the comments, but I have heard this WAY too often. There are 6 billion other people on this rock and just because you say you're a "real female" doesn't mean the other 6 billion people will accept you that way. Some violently won't accept you.

A vagina doesn't protect a post-op, yet I have heard people think that, too. I always point to the two women on the ROD list who told their new husbands.

I personally don't care when you tell or if you don't tell. If you are aware of what has happened to others and you make a counter decision, it is a decision you have to live with, assuming you live. More times than not nothing will happen. You get to decide if your odds are better then playing blackjack at Vegas. Just remember, in blackjack, to get another card, you say, "Hit me." Is that what you want to say to your date?

dyssonance for give my ignorance but what is cissgender? I did some quick research but dont really understand except its the opposite of transgender??

"Jesster,
You don't seem to understand. There are plenty of recorded situations where a post-op has been beaten up or killed when the man found out. Some didn't even had sex with them. It has nothing to do with "physically" meeting a man's expectations. It has to do with narrow-minded men who don't even care if a post-op has a vagina. They still consider them "men." No ifs, ands or buts about it. If it's happened to other post-ops in the past, then it can - and will - happen again. Does any post-op want to be the next victim? I don't think so."

In my comment, I was speaking more about the idea of deception and purely practical considerations than whether or not a vagina provides any protection for a trans woman.

I agree that there are many men out there who wouldn't care either way and would be creeped out by dating any trans woman. However, I'm with Mercedes here in that there are no absolutes and that disclosure doesn't always equal safety.

Speaking of Mercedes - I really liked her suggestions a few comments back. They actually reminded me of something I was reading a few days ago called How to Test-Drive Friends and Irritate People at Tim Ferriss' blog. I think there are definitely techniques you can use to get a pretty good read on people and that developing those skills are important to anyone in the dating world.

"It has to do with narrow-minded men who don't even care if a post-op has a vagina. They still consider them "men." No ifs, ands or buts about it. If it's happened to other post-ops in the past, then it can - and will - happen again. Does any post-op want to be the next victim? I don't think so."

I believe the word you are looking for is, "Genderbigot". Just coined it. I've known men that would beat up a woman they'd had sex with if they found out that she was 1/16 [insert non-Arian race here]. They would feel the equivalent (in their head) of being raped. Justifies anything in their heads, even killing (cognitive dissonance). My sister was married to one. Problem is, our culture is not even close to the level of evolution needed to recognize the similarity in my example to men that would hit or kill a woman they found had an interesting medical history. It comes down to a phobia of not being superior. And, of course, homophobia. All of which are, in the end, a function of fear of the unknown...

Jesster,
It is true that disclosure doesn't always equal safety, but not disclosing and taking the chance they find out later can been even worse. Playing Russian roulette can also be safe, 5/6th of the time. I can't tell people how to live their lives, but I can point out what has happened in the past. It is up to them to decide how much gambling with their lives they want to take.

The 10th Anniversary of the Transgender Day of Remembrance is November 20, 2008. Twelve names are on the list already. http://www.transgenderdor.org/

midtowner,

yeah, that's what it is. someone who is not trans.

Nothing more, nothing less :D

many risk their lives just going outside...such is the world we live in. granted, it isn't all that bad.

i cannot speak for anyone else, but as far as disclosure or "stealth", i lived one lie by pretending to be a man. now that i found the courage to be honest, i don't intend to build my life around a new lie, pretending that part of my life didn't exist. you have to be happy with you before anyone else is going to be. i am open with...everyone. if my past bothers them....f*ck them. they don't deserve to be my friend, or my lover. i have plenty of friends, and attention from men. more attention than i need. i haven't found "the one" yet, but that is okay. plenty of middle age women are in the same boat with me - all the good men are married at my age. i still know that i have value - and so do all of you. if the "one" ever comes along, he will find a woman happy with her life all on her own. and willing and able to share that life with him. and one thing is for sure, the "one" will not be trans or homophobic. why would anyone want a man who is?

brandi,

you have to be kidding me. we are "all woman" in spite of any surgical status. and post-ops are very much attacked, beaten, and murdered for their perceived "deception" by failing to disclose their past.

let me ask all of you, would you want to be with a man who was a racist, even if he was handsome and perfect in every other way? what if he was a homo-phobe? or a mysogynist? now ask yourself why a transsexual woman would consider a man even remotely acceptable if he was transphobic in any way? do you think he will make an "exception" in your case? and if he did, would you turn your back on your trans brothers and sisters? what exactly do you value in your life? do you have respect for your own humanity? everyone can and will make their own decisions on this one. your lives belong to you. that is, unless you are willing to give it up for time spent with someone who doesn't really know anything about you...

Hi Brandi :D

Hon, the underlying basis of your argument is that transwomen are not women until after surgery.

That is, that genitals determine one gender.

That is, basically, the exact opposite of the very concept of transsexuality.

You are saying that someone that has lived as a girl and a woman their entire life is not a woman, merely because she has a penis.

well, that's flat out rude, inherently wrong, and tells me you need to expand your familiarity not only with the philosophical viewpoints inherent in in the community at large, but with the individuals within that community that are well outside your comfort zone.

Disagreeing is fine -- but the reasons you are doing so undermine pretty much any valid discussion of the subject.

Are you saying I am not a woman?

Brandi, I agree with you completely, but you are wasting your breath.

What you are saying is, basically, the exact opposite of the transgender's concept of transsexuality.

They just don't get it...that is, genitals do determine gender to everyone but them...particularly straight men. *shrug*

Nice post, Brandi.

Gerri Ladene | August 9, 2008 2:31 PM

Well, post #23, it looks as if the discussion still has roots in YESTERDAYS blog post for obvious reason.

There are arguments here that still give higher post-op social status given the commentary remarks that have been made by others here! That is the breading ground of prejudice, meaning it is considered acceptable to disrespect another individual and call her “a pretender” when, either known or unknown, Angie Zapata may very well have been planning on SRS for herself. It’s so demeaning to put down another person based on solely on an inflated sense of superiority.

But, as we all know very well, insurance coverage (except in rare corporate coverage) does not exist for transsexuals and this may very well change in the future with the new AMA guidelines and suggestions for treating TS. Even with that there are how many Americans without any kind of insurance coverage at present?


How it is modern society creates such binary views on sex? Not the kind of view Jesus had but then again there are many who succumb to the institutionalized culture that we live in! While he was always very quick to love people, he resisted those who were using religion to dehumanize others and present flawed views which gave us discrimination and prejudice. In the song of John Lennon’s “Imagine” we can actually visualize something better for ourselves and the rest of humanity! Is it wrong to think of something better, inoffensive in its explanation and supportive of those who have suffered and those who yet will? Or, is it right to continue judging others based on prejudice? And there is prejudice being made here!


I will refrain from replying to post 35 for now.