Its official,Allen Ray Andrade has been charge with the hate crime in the murder of zapata.

here is the link to the story

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/17055544/detail.html

I think I can actually read the DA's quotation differently--I think he's trying to say that the natural focus of the press on the lurid details of trans sex is completely inappropriate. The 'shock' defense is inexcusable, and that this is a brutal, vicious murder, and should be considered as such.

I read the words of the DA in a more positive light also especially considering that it is being prosecuted as a hate crime. There is a pervasive tendency in our culture to assume that when sex is in any way involved in the commission of a crime the victim in some way shares in the guilt and must have done something to cause it. From a catholic priest complaining about children who seduce priests to the old if she hadn't been there and dressed that way she wouldn't have gotten raped.
I'm sad for the girl and her family and I hope that this guy gets the minimum penalty possible.

I can only say, regarding this latest example of hate-filled homophobia that if this young man hadn't been taught hate by those he looked to for guidance when he was growing up that Angie would still be alive today. This is the end result of positions like the Vatican's stance toward the Lambeth conference discussion on homosexuality, the preponderence of "socially constrictive" churches who blindly condemn what they don't even begin to understand, the absence of hate crime protections in states where gender-variant people are treated as less than human, and in organizations and schools where homophobia is tolerated, encouraged and defended. I am a transgendered woman and I feel the pain of the threat of random violence every day of my life simply for being who I am. It's past time to turn it around and make the perps afraid for a change. After one of us dies is not the time to do something. We have to do it before another one of us dies.

As Sadden as I’m am by this young womens death and how horrible it was. I can’t not Ignor the fact that this AGAIN is a case of pre-opertive trans girl picking up a staight guy and it ending badly. How many times must the trans community relive this same Drama before they learn straight Males are VERY homiphobic and will responded with anger & vilolences to cover thier embearassment over what amounts to THEM as having sex or even being invloved with another male.

It happen not to long ago In Menphis Tenn remember the women who found next to the day care beatten to death same story. All to often its the same story play over and over again in city after city. It’s only common sense that NO ONE should pretend or give the Impression to be a whole and complete as a women and then turn out to have Male Genitala. Yes they're are some men who like that but they know what they're getting into. This is a totally differant situation. It’s NO secret that Straight men do not like male genitaila. I’m so sad this beautiful young women died. I wish she had been honest with this man if so then this wouldn't have happened. He could have told her online I'm not into that and they could have parted ways, Butshe choice to decive him and tell him "IM All WOMEN" when in fact that wasn't the case at all. She may have felt all women but until she no longer had a penis between her legs the world won't see her as ALL women.

I wish people would get counseling and do transition the right way yes I mean SOC I feel there are way to many out there making theses life changing and Ireversible choices without a qualified counselor invloved. If she had I’m sure it something her therapist could have talked about is dating and saftey. The reality is most do not get counseling which only serves to delute the creditiblity of this condition. They don’t and in the same way they don’t get counseling they make bad decssions like thinking it’s ok to pick up STRAIGHT men without telling them thier little secret.

The story says they talked online she should have been open and honest with him if she had may very well still be a live maybe heart broken ,but alive. I hope that others who are thinking of picking up men without telling will take pause and give this young women death some thught before doing so.

Brandi Parker
SWVA Rep Equality VA

I, once again, have to hope and pray that a scumbag, this time named Andrade, gets to face the full fury of the justice system. And, once again, I know it'll be pleabargained, or the scumbag will get off with a lesser charge because of a panic defense. And, once again, we have another victim of a vicious hate crime.

One thing that unites the GLB and T communities are these assaults, and the scumsucking slimebag attorneys who use panic defenses to defend the indefensible.

Too many, too many already.......when are we going to finally show one of these perps what society thinks of murder, by giving them a proper murder sentence?

Polar-

Don't you find it terribly disturbing, that the thing that unites the LGBT community is violence?

What happens when violence of this type diminishes, then where will we be? (we all know it won't ever end..)

In any case, it's terrible that ANOTHER transperson was beaten and murdered. I also find it sad and reprehensible that gaysbians are acting like this such a "blow" to "them."

Yeah... right... if gaysbians really really cared, then they would stop focusing on getting married, and actually do something.

This is what happens when all your attention is focused on the rights for middle class white gaysbians.

I think I can actually read the DA's quotation differently--I think he's trying to say that the natural focus of the press on the lurid details of trans sex is completely inappropriate. The 'shock' defense is inexcusable, and that this is a brutal, vicious murder, and should be considered as such.

That's how I read it too, Rob. Maybe it's one small light in this horrible darkness?

Brandi Parker, that's some pretty juicy victim-blaming you have there. The civilized, human, appropriate response is to say, "Sorry, I don't this will work out" and leave. It is not to start bashing a young woman in the head with a fire extinguisher.

It's offensive to go on about how this must have happened because she was transitioning the wrong way, and that she was being deceptive. It doesn't matter. The only mistake she made was that she thought this man would treat her like a human being.

Don't blame the victim, blame the murderer. And please consider how much your post sounds like those guys who try to justify rape by talking about how the woman was dressed.

"Polar-
Don't you find it terribly disturbing, that the thing that unites the LGBT community is violence?
What happens when violence of this type diminishes, then where will we be? (we all know it won't ever end..)
In any case, it's terrible that ANOTHER transperson was beaten and murdered. I also find it sad and reprehensible that gaysbians are acting like this such a "blow" to "them."
Yeah... right... if gaysbians really really cared, then they would stop focusing on getting married, and actually do something.
This is what happens when all your attention is focused on the rights for middle class white gaysbians."

Kourt, it is a shame, but it is true: we, meaning GLB and T, are linked together, at least in part, because people wish us all ill, equally. It's murder, and murder of anyone is wrong: murder of someone because of who they fundamentally are, is heinous.

There are other reasons GLB and T are linked, and marriage is one. Employment rights, housing rights, DADT, AIDS, and youth issues are others. My perspective is forged from the fact that, in my part of the world, GLB and T people are united by their common enemy, which is one that doesn't differentiate.

Waymon, the newspapers quoted Buck out of context; at the original press conference, he was speaking after the police chief, who had listed off numerous minority/majority groups in the context of saying that all victims are equal in the eyes of the law. Buck also said at that time, in answer to the question "Was this a hate crime?" "Yes, definitely."

In context, it was clear that he meant no disrespect.

Lisa Your Wrong and you can ignor it all yu like but the facts are what the facts are She mislead him and that's that. I'm not blaming her but just as with any decssion in life we ALL have to take our part of the responsiblity for our actions, so you must she. I'm not saying she deserved to be beaten or die or to even be harmed, and likewise he must now be responsibly for his decssion and his actions even if they were out of anger or bias. She should have been for forth coming and honest and this would have never happened. They would have never gotten passed talking on the computer much less ever meant. Being Pre-op transexual comes with responiblitys one of which is to be open about your sexuality to any person your intenting to ingage in sexual contact with,Because just as you have rights so does the other person. They have the right to be informed and to make a informed decssion. She mislead him by telling him she was ALL WOMEN ! she's wasn't just living as a female fulltime doesn't make one a female not in our Society. Gender may be between the Ears my Dear but ones sex is between the legs.

Brandi Parker
SWVA Rep Equaity VA

Thanks for the clarification, Susan. In that context, it is much better.

Because just as you have rights so does the other person.

Really, Brandi?? So it was his right to react so violently and kill her? Your arguments are victim-bashing, plain and simple. Like Lisa said, the only real mistake Zapata made was to expect to be treated as a human being by this monster.

Nothing- NOTHING- excuses this kind of violence. I'm sick of people blaming the victims of extreme violence to excuse their own bias. It is happening with Lawrence King and has happened with many others.

Brandi,

You're making excuses for Andrede. I don't care how much you protest that you don't think she deserved to be killed, you're still saying "She should have done this" and "she didn't do that right" and "that got her killed."

That's pure-grade victim-blaming right there, dear. It's not Angie's responsibility that Andrede decided to kill her.

And, what's in my pants, your pants, anyone's pants is our private business unless we decide to drop those pants. There should not be a moral imperative to announce to people "BTW, I HAVE A PENIS." That's cissexism at work.

And look at this. I'm not the only one telling you this. Dyssonance says to you:

"I will be blunt: you are saying the equivalent of
"she dressed like a slut, and if she didn't, she wouldnt have been raped".

That, to me, is blaming the victim. And I have been nice about it until now."

Also, you're naive if you believe that full disclosure protects trans women from being murdered. I can think of three cases by name in which a man murdered a trans woman, claimed trans panic, and it was learned that he'd known the woman was trans - or that it was highly implausible that he didn't know she was trans - for some time. Gwen Araujo, Sanesha Stewart, and Chanelle Pickett were all likely known to their killers as trans women. I can also think of one case (can't remember the name) in which a guy who'd been going to a prostituted woman who was also trans for awhile was seen by his friends - they said something, and he killed her, claiming trans panic afterward. Of course, trans women tend to have their own part of the street separate from cis women, and the guys who go looking for them know which is which.

"I'm not blaming her..."

Of course, you are, just the same way that people still blame rape on the victim's choice of clothing. By saying that it wouldn't have happened if she had disclosed her pre-op status, you've given her actions direct causality.

Being pre/non, I know that a person can find a venue in which straight guys who are open-minded, tolerant, relaxed and understanding can be found, and I know of girls who have sought out these venues for their partners. It does not always go bad, although I also do not know of any long-term successes. Myself, I have always disclosed, but to me it's a personal consent issue.

"She should have been for forth coming and honest and this would have never happened."

Unless, of course, the mere fact that he'd been talking to someone who is trans offended him and he gathered up a few friends to track her down and "teach her a lesson." This is not altogether unlike my own experience. Disclosure can be just as dangerous as non-disclosure.

Being pre/non is always a catch-22. You can lose in every direction. For that reason, I won't criticize girls who don't disclose... not without there being a clear "right" or "wrong" thing to do.

Here are 2 opinions of hate crime laws...which do u agree with? or do u agree with either?

Here is one opinon for it:

When it enacted the Hate Crimes Act of 2000, the New York State Legislature found that:

Hate crimes do more than threaten the safety and welfare of all citizens. They inflict on victims incalculable physical and emotional damage and tear at the very fabric of free society. Crimes motivated by invidious hatred toward particular groups not only harm individual victims but send a powerful message of intolerance and discrimination to all members of the group to which the victim belongs. Hate crimes can and do intimidate and disrupt entire communities and vitiate the civility that is essential to healthy democratic processes. In a democratic society, citizens cannot be required to approve of the beliefs and practices of others, but must never commit criminal acts on account of them. Current law does not adequately recognize the harm to public order and individual safety that hate crimes cause. Therefore, our laws must be strengthened to provide clear recognition of the gravity of hate crimes and the compelling importance of preventing their recurrence. Accordingly, the legislature finds and declares that hate crimes should be prosecuted and punished with appropriate severity."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_crime

here is an opinon against hate crime laws:

Hate laws are a patch. They do not really reform the law in favor of the victim as they pretend to. If groups that have problems want real and lasting remedies, they have to go about it in a different way than by hate laws. For example, if gays wish to marry, the long-term solution is to get the state out of the marriage business. Failing this, if the state confers tax or economic privileges on married people and won’t recognize gay marriage, then the solution is to push for civil unions that give couples the same privileges. Or perhaps smart lawyers can dream up contracts that create units with tax privileges. If any group is faced with hatred, it is extremely doubtful that hate crime laws will ameliorate the problem. Most hatred is not manifested by outright crimes. Such laws will not stop speech. But they are clearly a move in that improper direction.

Hate laws are not socially healthy. Hate laws institutionalize society’s divisions. They perpetuate the faulty system by which pressure groups obtain special interest legislation. They build upon faulty legal theories, and we surely do not need more of those. They exacerbate society’s ever-present divisions. They have a host of problems and potential downsides.

The criminal justice system is already an under-performing segment of our society, and hate crime laws promise to drag it and society down further.

August 18, 2006

Michael S. Rozeff is the Louis M. Jacobs Professor of Finance at University at Buffalo.

Thank you Rick Wartha for providing the other link.Despite how tragic Angie Zapata's death was hearing the Police Chief of Greeley taking offense to Andrades calling her "it" for me was a positive sign.I also believe the DA's intentions are honorable and not meant to make light of the victims circumstance.Rob Barton I hope you meant to say maximum penalty possible not the minimum that you put.Brandi Parker to think you are a representative of Virginia equality.If what you represent is Virginia's idea of transgender equality I hope I never get to experience it.I do not believe that Miss Zapata's death or any other transpersons or lgb persons should be used as a guide for what not to do.Disclosure of ones status does not necessarily guarantee ones safety neither does with holding it.Playing what if with the victims action only enables the murderer.Thank you for posting this Waymon

I guess you all think she was blameless in this that she should be able to meet a guy just like any other women bring him back to her apt ingage in sexual conduct with him and have no obligation to tell him anything about her having MALE gentitala. You all think I'm wrong that she was as inocent as the driven snow, Well i'm sorry folks but it just Ain't so !!! She is responsible for her actions and for her choice to lie to him and to mislead him. I'm sure the consiquinses of her actions never entered her mind. He was wrong to react the way he did and he'll pay for his action too. But I'm sick on people thinking that just because they FEEL like a women and without haven EVER gotten the proper counseling they can CHOOSE to change gender on a whim or just because its how they want to live. Then throw on a dress take a few hormones and Waa-La your a women. I'm afraid its not that simple or easy. And I'm a firm Believer in the SOC and infact think the requirements should be much tighter then they are, as it is now theres so many loops hole out there anyone who whats to transition and has enough mney can do so. That Delutes the whole Valitity to my condition to not only the medical community but also to the general public, it gives the impression that this is a choice and not a medical birth defect.

I personal have nothing aginst pre-ops but thats because they do want surgery and are working toward getting it, but my personal feelings toward non-ops/shemales are they aren't truely Transexuals to begin with no true transexual who suffers from GID which is a feeling of being born in the wrong body. No one who feel this way wants a penis. In My opinion the peope who choose to keep thier penis have male brains and are NOT Gender Identity Disordered . They do not suffer from any gender disphoria they're completely happy with their penis and some in fact till even use it. I think there's a huge differance between transexuals and trnagenders. I refused to be lumped in with the people who dress or live as a women for thier own sexual gratification and do not suffer stand and suffer the discrimination and loss that ones of us who are true to ourselves go through. Ok so now let me have it.....lol
Sincerely
Brandi Parker
SWVA Rep Equality Va

Brandi-

First, you are making a lot of assumptions about Angie Zapata, which is just ridiculous. You have no idea what her intentions were regarding transitioning or anything else. And it doesn't matter.

I also don't want this important post to be hijacked by another "you're not a real woman or real transperson unless..." or GID definition discussion. You are welcome to your opinions on that subject, but this post is not about that.

This is a post about someone who was brutally murdered for because of intolerance and hatred- for being who she was. There is no excuse for the violence and no one to blame but the murder.

I echo Amy's comment: "You are a representative of Virginia equality. If what you represent is Virginia's idea of transgender equality I hope I never get to experience it."

Waymon I'm not sure what Intentions your refering to on Angie's part, but the fact that we known are she meant this man online they began chatting, agreed to meet and then they engaged in sexual acts, but because she knew of her little secret she refused to let him touch her. So from what we know her intentions as far as transition may not be known but the reason for their meeting is...it was a " booty call " As for her intentions regarding Transition your right I do not known,but I do know that following the SOC gudilines makes any transition go considerable smoother. In my experience people who most fear therapy and counseling are the ones who are afriad to hear what the counselor or therapist has to say.

I agree I do not want to lose focus of this post and your right its about the murder of this young women. I feel this guy should get whatever is coming to him and he too is going to have to deal with the results of his actions.

Waymon Alough I am a Repersentive for Equality Va the opinions I'm exprssing here are my own. I'm also a realist and feel that this women no matter if she is the victom in this is not Blameless, nor is she total at fault. No she didn't expect him to kill her or known how he would react nor did she deserve to be hit,beat or killed. I casn't believe you won't admit she had some clupiblity in this.

Brandi Parker
SWVA Rep Equality Va

We don't know what really went on between Angie and her killer. We don't know what they talked about before he met her. All we know is what Andrade told the police, and every word of that is geared toward the standard trans panic defense for killing a trans woman.

Andrade may have known she was trans before he came over. We don't know, and we shouldn't be fixating on that anyway.

And you're still blaming Angie for her murder. You're still saying "If she hadn't worn that dress, she wouldn't have been raped" and you're supporting the system that lets that defense work in court, that gets men off lightly for murdering women. That gets us jurors who accept that death is a reasonable punishment for this? The media that portrays trans women as scheming, deceiving tricksters out to manipulate men into having sex with them?

There's no letting Angie off the hook for anything. We can't let Angie off the hook because she's dead.

... but I do know that following the SOC gudilines makes any transition go considerable smoother

I'm not aware of anything in the SoC or the usage of it stating that one should not date while pre- or that disclosure is necessary. Personally, I think that learning to navigate how to relate to potential partners is part of the RLT.

(and I'll bite my tongue about the other stuff, Waymon. Grr.) >:

That's horrible!

CP: “I can only say, regarding this latest example of hate-filled homophobia that if this young man hadn't been taught hate by those he looked to for guidance when he was growing up that Angie would still be alive today.”

This actually is the root of this evil, people being taught to hate others thru religious indifference. A Vatican sponsored prejudice by men who wear robes and live in closets
.
BP: “I wish she had been honest with this man if so then this wouldn't have happened. He could have told her online I'm not into that and they could have parted ways, Butshe choice to decive him and tell him "IM All WOMEN" when in fact that wasn't the case at all. She may have felt all women but until she no longer had a penis between her legs the world won't see her as ALL women.”

And where would we be now without the miracle of modern medicine in the way of HRT and medical procedures to create that body, mainly SRS?

BP “I wish people would get counseling and do transition the right way yes I mean SOC I feel there are way to many out there making theses life changing and Ireversible choices without a qualified counselor invloved. If she had I’m sure it something her therapist could have talked about is dating and saftey. The reality is most do not get counseling which only serves to delute the creditiblity of this condition. They don’t and in the same way they don’t get counseling they make bad decssions like thinking it’s ok to pick up STRAIGHT men without telling them thier little secret.”

Ah yes, the SoC and its male conceived basis of how we become acceptable to society!

LH: “The only mistake she made was that she thought this man would treat her like a human being.”

How does a young person deal with their emotions when their world is based on emotions they feel and the only way any of us deal with that is by experimenting with social interaction? Unfortunately, youth is an emotionally driven time were one explores their feelings and reason goes out the window.

BP: “I guess you all think she was blameless in this that she should be able to meet a guy just like any other women bring him back to her apt ingage in sexual conduct with him and have no obligation to tell him anything about her having MALE gentitala. I personal have nothing aginst pre-ops but thats because they do want surgery and are working toward getting it, but my personal feelings toward non-ops/shemales are they aren't truely Transexuals to begin with no true transexual who suffers from GID which is a feeling of being born in the wrong body.”

Yes, lets create a social level of acceptance, not considering that not all T’s have the financial ability to make the modern miracle come true for them, or that in their saving for medical procedures that lack insurance coverage can take a long time for some. I’ve noticed how many, not all mind you, who have gone thru SRS now envision themselves as better than those who haven’t by there down cast comments toward their previous contemporaries.

BP: “I personal have nothing aginst pre-ops but thats because they do want surgery and are working toward getting it, but my personal feelings toward non-ops/shemales are they aren't truely Transexuals to begin with no true transexual who suffers from GID which is a feeling of being born in the wrong body.”

There are those who cherish and look forward to the idea of having the opportunity for SRS and those who feel that surgery itself does not in reality mean acceptance for a myriad of reasons or that their present state of being is acceptable for them. But, then I’m not out to judge any individual for their the way they choose to live their lives but to support anyone who has the courage to do it their way and not diminish others by adhering to religious male conceived notions of how that should be. Our society is in turmoil enough from the legacy that is Rome, and anyone who has read my ranting knows my view of Institutional Religion and its influence.

My heart goes out to the Zapata family for their terrible loss, such a shame. But, as for the homicidal little MF’ing prick that took her life by repeatedly beating her in the head with a FIRE EXTINGUISHER until he was certain that she was dead, I can only hope that he enjoys Vatican style jailhouse sex for years to come, and all the brutality that goes with it!

And by the way Brandi, do you think you could learn how to use a WP? I find it helps immensely!

Brandi,
Thanks for clarifying after several posts that you are speaking for yourself and not for SWVA Rep Equality Va. I think that's an important point to make, but by attaching your affiliation it's hard to separate what you are trying to say from the organization.

In this case, your personal opinion,your choice of wording, and tone has not put SWVA Rep Equality Va in the most positive light. I'm pretty sure if your organization has a professional communications person on staff, they would be reaching for a bottle of antacid.

I kind of think, or at the least hope I think you weren't blaming the victim of this horrible hate crime for the violent death she endured. To do so is cruel, disrespectful, and plainly unacceptable.

I truly hope the message you were attempting to deliver concerned the sometimes life threatening and ever present dilemma that trans people face every day when it comes to the decision of making disclosures of ones current status or past history.

I hope you were trying to underline the fact that even when trans people do make the appropriate disclosures, they are still in danger of violence.

I would hope you would be emphasizing the continued and urgent need for your organization and others like it to continue the work of advocating for trans people and high lighting the fact that legislation is a part of the overall picture to end such needless and tragic violence. I would truly hope that you were trying to say that this tragedy is yet another reason why your organization and the community as a whole needs to reach out to society in general to bring awareness and change the attitudes of people regarding transphobia and homophobia.

I would hope that your posts were meant to underline and express your concern to trans people to be careful and to weigh their decisions concerning when and if to disclose their history to potential intimate partners carefully.

Since there is also an aspect to this most recent case of violence which includes online introductions, I would have thought it appropriate for you to also underscore the need for safety when meeting someone online. Meeting someone online is something that is not peculiar to just trans people, but is a significant factor in our entire community which has not been well publicized or stressed.

One last observation IMHO concerns the openness of discussions in the blogoshpere. Online blogs are very public. As such they are searched and read by not only the people who come to blogs to read and participate with genuine honesty. There are also those who would dearly love to thwart and use our own openness against us.

With a little loose editing:

"I am a Repersentive for Equality Va" and went on to say, "I'm also a realist and feel that this women no matter if she is the victom in this is not Blameless, nor is she total at fault. No she didn't expect him to kill her or known how he would react nor did she deserve to be hit,beat or killed. I casn't believe you won't admit she had some clupiblity in this."

To be admittedly overly critical, I hope that the opponents of Equality in Virgina don't latch onto your statement to use to their benefit.

I do believe that it is appropriate for trans people to have conversations about the importance of taking care while dating.

I do not believe that it is appropriate to derail conversations about murdered women to have those conversations and use those murdered women as an object lesson.

Hi All, Have to agree with Brandi..and so do a lot of LGBT people. Its so sad and so horrible not trying to diminish it, but actions get consequences and no its not the same as clothing = rape. Its a lot more. You have to be realistic to live in this world, sad but true. We all wish things were different but there not, one day hopefully will be but there not. We have to be educated and know how to take care of ourselves not do stupid things...

And as far as her being young etc, were are all the Trans sites helping young people cope or to educate themselves in how to protect themselves. Where are other trans people setting up things like the Trevor Project, etc...This could have been a life saved if Trans people would have united and started taking care of each other a little more...There are rich Trans folk who can set things up and plenty of GLB's that would support it. Seems to me that this def could have been avoided.

Midtowner bringing this conversation here isn't right.Neither is deciding that a tg or TS persons death is their fault because they did or didn't choose to have surgery or did or didn't choose to reveal their status.There are resources out there for young TS and tg's but you have to wade thru a cesspool of porn to find them or risk exposing them to misguided role models.As other blogs come up about these subjects then is the right to comment on them now is the time to respectfully reflect on another unnecessary loss.