I am tired of fighting this same, self-destructive battle. It is one thing to hold the line against our multiplying enemies--the Religious Right has become so strong in this country! But why do I have to keep fighting with my supposed lesbian and gay allies and then turn around and argue with members of my trans community?!

I can relate to that. I've sometimes thought about packing it in following my commitment to TDoR in November for that reason. It seems like the arguments aren't just going on forever, they're picking up steam and allies we once had are jumping on the seperatism bandwagon.

The one thing that encourages me (something you also indicated) are the youth. To them, a lot of times, the semantics are irrelevant. To them, community is what matters.

:(

Marriage equality affects us all. For one, the general public doesn't understand the differences between the G, L, B, and T, let alone the nuanced distinctions between the various subgroups within them. When the government and the majority of society recognize that gays, lesbians and bisexuals have the same right to marry the person they love as straights do, it advances all of the GLBT rights movement because it is an issue of equality and fairness.

On a personal level, I, as a gay FTM, am directly affected by marriage equality. Many other trans people of both sexes and all sexual orientations are as well, because different jurisdictions have different rules for determining sex. In places where sex change is not recognized, a straight FTM is legally female and cannot marry a woman. Those laws need to be changed too. Regardless, the ability to marry should not be dependent on the sex or gender of the parties involved.

Marriage equality affects us all.

I couldn't agree with you more! I only wish more people saw it as clearly as you do.

I get so discouraged by self-centeredness and the in-fighting.

Brynn
Prop. 8 could be a real problem for all of us if it passes. You see that, I see that and I'm sure that a lot of T's see it. Thanks for your hard work! A lot of T- people are very angry (&HURT) about what happened with ENDA and the HRC's . I would say that there is a BIG Back lash happing because of that! I also know that most people in the USA are frightened about the mess the country is in. They feel that they can not donate money or time to anything because of the fear of running out of money themselves! Again Thank You for your hard work in defeating Prop. 8 Regina

Brynn I mostly agree with you and I understand your logic.But what pains me is needing same sex marriage for me to basically be able to be in a heterosexual marriage.Don't get me wrong as I support same sex marriage for those who identify as lgb but I hate for it to come at the cost of gender recognition for transsexuals.Party A and Party B just sounds wrong to me for something like marriage that should be taken more seriously then it is.How about Life Partner A and Life Partner B it adds a sense of finality to the arrangements and recognizes for what it is supposed to be a lifetime commitment.

I'm in Australia, and am straight anyway.
Proposition 8 doesn't affect me directly.

But this isn't a "what's in it for me" issue. It's a Human Rights issue.

Jeez, and I'm supposed to be the Right Wing Death B*tch around here. When is the Left going to stop being so Goshdarn selfish??? Things have come to a pretty pass when a neocon is the only one showing a trace of old-fashioned idealism.

Sometimes you have to do things because they're right, not because they're pragmatic.

TS people please note - being backstabbed by Barney and the HRC is no reason not to do what should be done, regardless. Or we'll be admitting that pragmatism and "what's in it for me" is the way to go. We'll be no different from them.

We reaped what we sowed.

The desire of Untramontane Greerian Lesbian Purists and Assimilationist Gay Men to establish themselves as mainstream, and moving the trans to the margins to be forgotten, which has been happening since the old Mattachinists reconstituted themselves as the leaders of the gay rights movement after condemning Stonewall's radicalism, has come home to roost.

We cannot repeatedly bargain away the trans in every compromise that we make to obtain queer equality. I honestly cannot take the trans community to task for turning their backs upon us. We have time and time turned our backs on them.

Dale Carpenter has editorialised repeatedly that the T needs to go. Did the HRC take him to task for it? Did the NCLR?

No.

Matt Foreman, who has now seen the light, bargained away trans rights to employment during the SONDA battle in New York in 02. Trans are still unprotected in much of New York State.

Jokes are made at T expense in the media repeatedly. Is their any call for boycotts of hose who do so, as opposed to those boycotts of businesses who support Prop 8?

Exactly why should Trans support any measure beneficial to gays or to Lesbians right now? Yes, the NCLR did support T inclusion in ENDA, but the HRC did not, nor did many gay male and feminist Lesbian authors.

The Trans took a beating.

One of the frequent arguments used was that the Trans could marry and the gays could not(I know that the argument is fallacious, just quoting) so the Gay men and Lesbians felt absolved from inistsing on T inclusion.

We did this.

We failed to make strong stands against trans bigotry and marginalisation. Frequently, we failed to take any stand against it.

Members of our own communities discriminate against trans people and we frequently say nothing.

We left unchallenged the calls for removing the T from LGBT community centres.

This is the result, the crop of weeds sprung from the bad seed.

And, in my view, we deserve and we earned this.

To the general post, I have to say that I have been experiencing the same.

rank and file wise, the fury and rage is absolutely incredible. I'm responsible for some of it, feeling it myself, and I do not regret any of it.

It is not being channeled, though, and this is what happens.

As screwed up as our marriage rights are right now, near as anyone can tell, in terms of straight transfolks, Prop 8 doesn't hurt them.

I'm not personally hurt by the Arizona version.

I've said before -- marriage is without much meaning when you can't find work so you can't even be yourself.

And yet, every day, I am out canvassing and out speaking and posting online in all manner of places to get these things turned down.

Not because its the right thing to do. I can't say that for my own motivation.

My motivation is because of my transkith -- some of them cannot marry. That needs to change.

I find this backlash to be harmful to ourselves for that reason.

But as was already noted, we've been crapped on one time too many.

It has driven a wedge that *must* be dealt with.

Now.

Or none of us will get anything.

I'm T, and I certainly want to see marriage remain legal in CA. Why? It is a T issue, particularly for those T people who marry, regardless of who you marry, for it may be perceived differently depending on legal definition.

For instance, I'm a CD, but I could well transition someday. My wife would probably stay with me, if I did. I live in a state that will never, most likely, recognize any form of civil union or marriage. If I were to undergo surgery, I could change my papers and be legally female in my state. I would then be in a same-sex marriage. Under my state's laws, any "officer of the court" could invalidate my marriage. Confused yet? Yes, it's a T issue.

I do believe we're going about it all wrong, just as we're going about ENDA all wrong. What should be done is to have the term "marriage" returned to its status as denoting a religious sacrament, and replace it with the term "civil union". Simply consider the legal part of "marriage" a civil union, and leave the term "marriage" as a church issue. "

Instead of ENDA, I would simply make law the notion that nobody may be hired, fired, promoted or demoted, or compensated, based on any factor other than bonafide qualifications, then define those qualifications - and obviously gender identity or sexual orientation would be specifically excluded as ever being bonafide qualifications of employment.

Of course, those proposals make sense, and since Barney Frank and HRC have never worked in any sort of commonsense manner, they'll go nowhere. But, if that revolution were to happen, and I could become supreme monarch (so that I could be king or queen, as my whims dictate)........

This has been a great discussion here!!

Thanks to everyone who has contributed, and also kept it polite and on issue.

You guys rule!

the entire community needs to recognize that our enemies make no distinctions in the differences between us. anyone who does not neatly conform to the male/female binary in gender or sexual orientation is QUEER. we are stripped of equal rights, equal opportunity, and even the right to love. we are denied basic humanity and are often referred to as abominations. we are the "third gender", and the rights that are denied to any of us are rights denied to all. yes, certain issues seem to apply to some more than others but the underlying principle remains the same. we are one, unified by oppression. we face discrimination and hatred solely because we are different; we do not conform to the binary. those within our community who fail to grasp our common humanity, those who can only see our differences, have more in common with those who oppress us than they do with us. that is a pity. we are family. and that is a lot to be thankful for.

the entire community needs to recognize that our enemies make no distinctions in the differences between us. anyone who does not neatly conform to the male/female binary in gender or sexual orientation is QUEER. we are stripped of equal rights, equal opportunity, and even the right to love. we are denied basic humanity and are often referred to as abominations. we are the "third gender", and the rights that are denied to any of us are rights denied to all. yes, certain issues seem to apply to some more than others but the underlying principle remains the same. we are one, unified by oppression. we face discrimination and hatred solely because we are different; we do not conform to the binary. those within our community who fail to grasp our common humanity, those who can only see our differences, have more in common with those who oppress us than they do with us. that is a pity. we are family. and that is a lot to be thankful for.