Editors' Note: Bumped back up to the top so the conversation can continue.
I said in my post yesterday that I have questions about feminist and transgender issues. I invited other Projectors to throw in their own questions into the comments and we'd use them as community discussions to provide answers. Feel free to keep leaving questions on that thread and we'll use them in other posts. Nothing is too stupid; nothing is unwelcome.
I wanted to grab the first question posted and expand it a bit because it's such a good question. Keep in mind that some Projectors will be writing from their own experience while others will be more academic. That's okay.
By putting this post up late in the day, it should stay on the front page for a while so we all have time to participate. I hope you do.
Question after the jump.
From Projector Jill:
My first question is one that I think is fundamental to all further discussion. Are transgender people part of a community with gays lesbians and bisexuals, or is transgender a separate community that is being lumped together with the GLBs as an allied group? I know in the old days, no one really made a distinction between gays and transgenders, but is that still valid today? (Okay, so it's two questions.)
While a couple of people left comments about Jill's question in the comment thread, I asked to expand it further:
...if the T community is separate, doesn't that mean the other segments are also free standing? I mean, is it the G & L & B & T community?
And does that explain a lot of the frustrations that sometimes all the groups have getting along? Men vs women keeps G & L at odds. Throw in trans and their touch on both sexes and a whole new set of concerns arise. Are we really four different groups that just consolidated for political power?
So, what do you think? What's the commonality? Shared history? Non-gender conformity? Political power? Pipe up; don't be shy. Ask other questions too, if you need to.




I think it's Common Enemies. Nothing brings a group of disparate people together quicker than exposing a shared threat.
In that vein, I think Gender Non-Conformity is valid. I think it's that that makes our enemy tick.
Renee | September 5, 2008 4:18 PM
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I don't even think there is an L community, a G community, a B community, or a T community. There are too many layers of class and empowerment in each group to consider any one of them a community.
There are homeless gay youth who turn tricks to survive. There are rich closeted men who pay them. Are they part of the same community?
There are "heterosexual crossdressers only" organizations. There are people taking black market hormones and getting silicone injections. Are they part of the same community?
I find it hard to believe in community when I read about, and hear, comments like:
- (by a gay man about transsexuals)Men in women's bathrooms.
- (by lesbians about mtf transsexuals)A man in a dress is not a lesbian.
- (by gay men)Women are taking over the HIV/AIDS organizations.
- (by crossdressers)I'm not confused like a transsexual.
- (about crossdressers) I'm not a man in a dress.
- (by heterosexual crossdressers)No homosexuals allowed
not to mention the unspoken contempt between the classes.While we're saying "were the same as everyone else", we betray our real feelings by declaring ourselves different from each other.
It's not bad enough that there are a bunch of us locked outside the big tent that calls itself "normal". We have to divide ourselves up into smaller camps of "more normal than thou". And, by exploiting our divisions, those who control access to the big tent will continue to keep us out.
If we want to claim equality to the mainstream, we had better get it through our own heads that we are also equal to each other.
Cindi Knox | September 5, 2008 4:43 PM
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Well said, Cindi.
Every post I've seen on this thread expresses goodwill, even if views differ.
Maybe I should leave it at that. There are other views though, from the homophobia in some trans* groups - the ones who predicted 3 years ago that ENDA would never include trans people - to the transphobia expressed in some very influential Gay publications.
Both these phobics have their critics. Some elements in both the apparently homophobic trans and apparently transphobic gays are not phobic at all, they have genuine concerns. We can work with them, for they are us.
Others... make things more problematic.
Zoe Brain | September 5, 2008 10:23 PM
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Very well said, Cindi. But how do we overcome that?
It's almost as if we're advocating "separate but equal" as a standard for our own community.
Bil Browning | September 6, 2008 11:52 AM
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Bil, while there's stuff like this being published in The Advocate without rebuttal, we have a long way to go.
It's not just a Loony fringe either, there are mainstream voices saying the same things, albeit with more "dog whistling" rather than explicit calls for moral extermination. That latter phrase is from Janice Raymond's "Transsexual Empire" which is still the only Lesbian Theory work on Transsexuality.
- From Lynn Conway's siteTrans* people have died as the result. And it continues. Look at Wisconsin's Inmate Sex Change prevention Act
It would never occur to you that the main argument for giving you necessary medical treatment is that it's cheaper than the cost of a funeral. That's an example of Cis privilege, but I digress.My point is... what GLB(t) groups have made a fuss about this? Wisconsin has had full civil rights for GLBs for what, 33 years? Trans* are still waiting for the GLB movement to "come back" for them.
There's a history here. Now sometimes you have to forgive and forget, and if it wasn't still going on, we could draw a line under it. But it is, and so we can't.
My note to Chris Chrain:
Chris Crain's reply: So much for "coming back".
We need to not just air these problems, painful though they may be, with lots of finger-pointing and guilty parties reacting with aggression so they don't feel guilty.
We need to fix them, take a leaf from the South African "Truth and Reconciliation Commission". Forget the Blame Game. The trouble is, rabid transphobia is still alive and well in the GLB movement.
Zoe Brain | September 6, 2008 11:02 PM
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Zoe,
Interesting that you bring up the lesbian angle with Chris Crain. When he was the editor of Southern Voice, my ex girlfriend was a writer for them. She and other women who worked for him all said that he was a "chauvinist pig." (Notice the quotes.) His view of women is exactly the same as the Republicans. They're only worth having around if they can do something useful for him. Besides, if he said lesbians shouldn't be covered by ENDA, they would kick his ass.
MonicaHelms | September 10, 2008 6:55 AM
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You don't know how much I wish this could happen.
Speaking as a lesbian...
Lisa Harney | September 10, 2008 3:33 PM
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How we overcome that is to remember that we are we.
Helping each other overcome is very difficult - more difficult than overcoming it ourselves. But overcoming it ourselves is the first step.
When I am able to look at the street hustler, lesbian separatist, occasional crossdresser, circuit partygoer, married bisexual, suburban lesbian couple, transgender sex worker, and all the other people as people like me, I can model that to others.
And yes, even though Janice Raymond sees me as a part of the patriarchy trying to destroy feminism, I have to care about her. Even though Barney Frank keeps talking about "men in women's bathrooms", I have to care about him. Even though HRC doesn't see my ability to hold a job or have a place to live as a priority, I have to care about the people in HRC. I don't have to agree with their ideas, but I have to recognize them as people in the same struggle I am in.
And, like it or not, I need to care about straight people - even those who attack me. I don't have to agree with them, but I have to care about them. Rick Santorum is a human being, just like me. James Hartline is a human being, just like me. Phyllis Schlafly is a human being, just like me.
In doing so, my hope is that others will stop seeing me as mentally ill, a freak, or confused. My hope is that others will stop being embarrassed or annoyed by my existence, or feeling that I somehow "hurt the cause".
Of course, I'm not perfect at this, and sometimes I lash out. More often I offer cynical and sarcastic comments. I'm a work in progress.
I happen to be working toward ordination in the United Church of Christ. My dream is of creating space for faith communities of people who do not feel safe in traditional churches. People often ask me why I would be a part of something (Christianity) that condemns me. Yet the condemnation is not from Jesus, it is from people who claim to follow Jesus. The actual Jesus of the Bible restored people to community, reaching out to those the religious leaders wouldn't touch. It is that message, the message or reuniting people and bridging those gaps between us, that calls me to ministry. There should be no one turned away from community - whether it is a community of faith or civil community.
Of course, Jesus got killed. And I don't expect to escape emotional - and perhaps physical - harm in trying to live out this idea that we ought to care for each other even when we don't like each other. I expect some will take what help I offer, then turn around and ignore - or take advantage of - me. But I'm not going to make any of our lives better by putting more negative energy into this mix of people.
Sure, I can call out what I think is misguided policy or ideas that lack basis in fact. But I am still going to donate to HIV/AIDS and Breast Cancer research. I am still going to stand up for the rights of sex workers and guys who meet in public restrooms. I am still going to stand up for people to be recognized by their self-identified gender and for marriages to be recognized no matter with what genders (if any) the parties identify.
I do this because we are people. When I think of all of us as "we", there is no "them". And maybe, when I do this, someone will join me. And maybe, when that someone does this, someone else will join us. And maybe one day the Queer Community - including those of every religion and those of no religion - will teach people who call themselves Christians about how to live like Jesus: reaching out to all other human beings.
Cindi Knox | September 8, 2008 8:02 AM
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I don't know about Phyllis Shlafly.
But seriously, Cindi, your thinking mirrors my own, exactly. Thanks for expressing those ideas, ideas that I share, so succinctly.
Zoe Brain | September 10, 2008 8:43 PM
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I agree with you that we are many communities. We will always be many, simply because it's human nature to divide ourselves into small groups. But we can also be one community at the same time, like United ENDA.
I'm a gay transsexual man who has been verbally attacked by a few transsexual women, and transsexual men, and transgender people, and gays, and lesbians, and genderqueers, because I didn't fit one definition or another, or I didn't share one view or another. It's difficult not to hold grudges, and it's easy to extend those grudges to a broader group. But when it comes down to the reality of the world we live in, as others here have pointed out, most of those outside our community make no distinctions between us. We're all gay to them.
Non-trans gays and lesbians are sometimes discriminated against or attacked for gender non-conformity. Pre-transition transwomen are often mistaken for gay men. I've been mistaken for a lesbian for most of my life. I've suffered anti-lesbian prejudice and hate, even though I never identified as a lesbian, and even before I knew what a lesbian was.
If I ever decide I want to get married, as a gay man, I will be affected by the legal status of same-sex marriage. So, gay issues are my issues. And transsexual issues are my issues. And since I never want to feel like I'm forced to adhere to any gender stereotypes, transgender and genderqueer and even crossdresser issues are my issues. And because I've experienced anti-lesbian hate, lesbian issues are my issues. And because, every once in a great while, I'm attracted to a woman, bisexual issues are my issues. Did I miss anybody?
My experience aside, from a political standpoint, unity is the best strategy. Internal debates (mutually respectful ones at least) are necessary, because that's how we learn about each other, but we need to present a united front to the outside world. The rainbow flag belongs to all of us.
Wolfgang E. B. | September 9, 2008 11:09 PM
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Two or more.
ewe | September 5, 2008 4:46 PM
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I think there are lots of people who, whether they identify as gay/queer or not, there's still the constant threat of homophobia based on how others perceive them. Trans people are often in this situation. Even if you are straight, you still run the risk of people trying to dissolve your marriage because they think it's a same sex marriage. You still have folks harass you on the street because they think your queer. You still have employers throw away your resume because they think your gender presentation is just bringing your sexuality into public. In so many people's minds, being gay, being gender non-conforming, or being trans, is all one and the same.
That creates a connection, but not necessarily a community. Community is based on shared understanding and mutual support, which unfortunately is frequently not a reality between L, G, B, let alone T sub-communities.
See, it's not the LGBTQ community, but the LGBTQ communities. There's no one trans community, no one bi community, and so on. Some of those communities are very isolation, and some of them are very integrated. I spend most of my time either in isolated trans communities or integrated queer/trans/dyke communities. Like any minority community, we are separated and united, depending on where you look.
Tobi Hill-Meyer | September 5, 2008 4:49 PM
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Tobi, should integration be the goal or are we missing the target somehow? I'm not sure.
Bil Browning | September 6, 2008 11:55 AM
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Integrated spaces are very important, we won't get the LGBTQ internal education we need without them. This blog, for example, is one of the most integrated LGBTQ online spaces I know of. I don't think I've ever seen so many trans folk and so many cis folk who haven't spent time in trans community all together.
But having some more isolated spaces can be important to. Spaces like this alone wouldn't be quite enough for me to get my trans community fix. A space doesn't need to be trans only, but trans focused spaces that is say, 80% or more trans people, have been very important to getting the support, connection, and sense of community presence that I don't usually get in LGBTQ spaces (even the integrated ones).
I think the real goal is to have more integrated spaces than we currently have, and to have everyone spend time in integrated spaces -- even if they also spend time in more isolated spaces.
Tobi Hill-Meyer | September 6, 2008 3:07 PM
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Interesting point, Tobi.
While we've been rolling out state-level Bilerico sites, we've often considered creating a "trans" Bilerico or a "gay" Bilerico, etc. So far, we've decided to pursue the state-level sites just for the inclusion of everyone as versus the segregation of various groups.
What's your (and everyone else's) opinion on that decision?
Bil Browning | September 10, 2008 8:17 AM
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There are already a lot of trans-specific, gay-specific and lesbian-specific blogs out there (not much for bisexual folks, unfortunately). Bilerico's strength is in its inclusiveness... with a welcome, even. I simply see developing Bilerico-G or L or B or T as the beginning of a process that will eventually (and unintentionally) erode that.
Mercedes Allen | September 10, 2008 8:30 AM
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Bil wrote:
Speaking from a personal and selfish viewpoint... please don't split.You see, I don't identify as "queer" or "TG" or "gay". I've done some "edumacating" on "cis-gendered privilege", but the fact is, I need even more "edumacating" myself on GLBT issues. T for TG rather than TS/IS.
There's two sites that have given me whole new perspectives, ones I badly need: Bilerico and TransGriot. The first has enabled me to communicate with, and listen to, GLB and sometimes TG people, the second Trans* of colour, or rather, color.
4 years ago, I knew nothing. I was diagnosed as mildly IS, but in the mainstream of straight society. OK, girl in (mostly) boy body, but no big deal, I could live with it. Being asexual, mildly lesbian if anything, helped. When my extreme, not mild, IS condition manifested, I transitioned, because as soon as my body started normalising to the smallest degree, the relief was so immense, it shattered the denial I'd had to adopt as a survival strategy to stay sane. But before then, I was on the outside, looking in, with zero contact with any TG or GLB group. I guess it shows sometimes.
30 years ago, I'd given some minor support to "Gay Lib" - the terminology shows how far back that was. Not because I was gay, I was actually quite homophobic, and not because I was "progressive", far from it, but because it was about Human Rights. Persecution is wrong.
Now because of a metabolic and genetic oddity, I've been catapulted, kicking and screaming in protest, into some great GLBT conglomerate. Everyone on the outside, FOF etc, sees me as the Gayest of the Gay. Everyone on the inside assumes I must be on the Left. I don't get consulted.
It is not only poetic justice, but the best thing that could have happened to a rather priggish, conservative, and emotionally but not intellectually homophobic woman like myself. Someone who under only slightly different circumstances would have been a member of the Concerned Women of Whatever, because of my Idealism.
I've begun to become aware of the crap (pardon the language) GLBs have to put up with every single farnarckling day. I no longer see "gays" or "lesbians" or even "transgenders", I only see people, human beings, denied human rights. I don't care that I don't personally identify with them, any more than I identify with Cherokee, Arunta, Tinglit or Patagonians. I see persecution and injustice, and I see people. I want, I need, to be "edumacated" about GLB issues, and GLB people, big time. So I can help.
Also... I like the people here. It's a place which is not a sterile monoculture, everybody with the same viewpoint, all congratulating ourselves on how progressive and right-thinking we all are in our common views.
It is this diversity that I think is Bilerico's strength. Split into monocultures, it would lose that. So from a purely personal and selfish viewpoint, please don't split.
Zoe Brain | September 10, 2008 8:34 PM
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I am inclined to think that our common trait is the fact that we have been oppressed and mistreated because of sex. Beyond that, we really have very little in common. When I assess the diversity of my closest friendships over the years, I find that they include women, men, gay straight, lesbian, trans, etc. But those friendships are based on qualities that transcend (while encompassing) those persons' sexuality. Sometimes, C and I will stand in a crowded gay bar and remark to each other how we have very little in common with most of the men with whom we rub shoulders. When we all put down our shields and swords and go home after winning this war for sexual equality and freedom, we will all promise to stay in touch, but very few of us ever will, that is just a fact of life. Meanwhile, we must work together like good soldiers on the same side. Be assured that "I got your backs covered", ladies. And I don't mean that as would a straight man.
Father Tony | September 5, 2008 4:50 PM
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I completely agree with this idea, Father Tony. The personal connection is what cemented the deal for becoming a trans advocate for me. It went from the realm of conceptual to concrete reality by putting a face and a friendship out there for me to focus on.
Do you think the friendships and personal connections will outlast the common battle? Will that be what keeps us "together" in the end?
Bil Browning | September 6, 2008 11:57 AM
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Its certain they will.
When someone is right there, its a lot harder to depersonalize them.
And that's what is done to us. Its why those of us who choose to be out should also choose to be vocal.
dyssonance | September 6, 2008 8:41 PM
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Oh Yes, Bil. I am thinking of my neighbor, Kelly, in Provincetown. She was a great friend who just happened to be a lesbian. Our connection went far beyond sexual identity.
Father Tony | September 9, 2008 10:15 PM
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We ain't all ladies, my friend. And those of us who aren't, get tired of our apparent invisibility. FTMs too, are here, queer, & fabulous. I'm sure you didn't mean anything by it but still feels like exclusion.
thaniel | September 7, 2008 2:57 PM
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Hey, it could be worse. You could be visible like trans women:
* Romanticized autobiographies (Second Serve, Conundrum, Christine Jorgensen A Personal Autobiography, to name a few)
* Trashy documentaries that emphasize trans women's femininity as artificial and affected - lots of shots of putting on makeup, high heels, emphasis on talk about the trappings of womanhood, not so much on the realities of being a woman
* Movies that emphasize the above (TransAmerica)
* The stereotypes of the pitiable trans woman who "looks like a man in a dress" or the deceiver trans woman who "is indistinguishable from a cis woman," who is portrayed as a victimizer by tricking men into having sex with her...and is the basis for the defenses used when men kill us.
* Feminist polemics calling for the downfall of trans women everywhere, or at least mark us as evil and sinful in some way (The Transsexual Empire, Pantomime Dames)
* Porn, porn, and more porn based on sensationalism like "Look, a woman with a man's genitals!"
* Used as tokens in anti-civil rights campaigning: "Giving civil rights to transsexuals would mean letting rapists put on dresses and hide in the restrooms."
* Approximately one murdered a month, complete with news stories emphasizing birth names and using masculine pronouns.
Just being visible isn't a privilege, and it certainly hasn't done trans women any favors.
Lisa Harney | September 7, 2008 3:52 PM
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Are there any positive reasons for being visible? I would hope there are, or if people read your list and belied that is all there is for us, they would not consider life worth living.
MonicaHelms | September 11, 2008 12:16 PM
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Yes, of course there are. For one, countering some of the visible stereotypes. For another, having a voice.
And of course, not everyone sees trans women like that, but I think those things do inform what people think to a greater or lesser degree. These are also a bit conflicting as the documentaries and autobiographies kind of explain being trans, and while the presentations are not that great (often being sensationalized), they're not completely negative.
The idea that the list implies that life would not be worth living is kind of shocking to me.
Lisa Harney | September 11, 2008 2:12 PM
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That said, Father Tony should've acknowledged trans men, too.
Lisa Harney | September 7, 2008 3:55 PM
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Lisa, honestly, this semantic warbling of the complete alphabet does get a bit ridiculous and cumbersome and meaningless.
Sometimes, when we are en famille, as we are here, you have to understand and assume the unspoken inclusions. Just because I didn't trot out every ungapatchka variation of humanity in my comment does not mean I excluded someone. I think we need to find a sensible balance and aim our corrections at the real enemy.
Also, nowhere is it written that every comment must be all-inclusive, and that is just the sort of law that a Republican would concoct.
Father Tony | September 9, 2008 10:32 PM
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In this case, "ladies and gentlemen" instead of just "ladies," was what Thaniel was talking about.
It's not as important to me as it is to him, but as it is important to him, I was being supportive.
Lisa Harney | September 9, 2008 10:41 PM
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I assumed Father Tony was addressing the commenters who had posted before he did; all of which were trans women.
Bil Browning | September 10, 2008 8:15 AM
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Thaniel, I apologize for snapping at you - I was mad about something related, but I didn't need to bring it here.
Lisa Harney | September 7, 2008 9:33 PM
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In the past, didn't we all gravitated to local community establishments due to the commonality of police harassment and society's scorn? Using the panning for gold anology, you swirl around the dirt and water in the pan and the flakes of gold will gravitate together because of their weight.
Society "swirled" us around until we all seeked out others like us to hang out together. Safety in numbers. Word of mouth kept people together and if they had to move, they would all find a new location together. We had our differences, but we all were bonded together because of our similarities and how society treated us all.
The reason we are more fractured today is that society has accepted some of us more than others. The ones who now have a level of favor with society do what they can to keep that level - regardless of how low it might be - which means they have to reject those who have not reached that same level. It is almost a "survival technique," where they cannot risk angering the power brokers by showing acceptance of those who have not garnered favor. It creates a faux hierachy that causes some of the problems LGBT people face internally.
This is why we see some LGBT (mostly L & G) get upset when they are only mentioned once in a candidate's acceptance speech, when others are not even mentioned at all. They want more and when they get just crumbs, they get upset, yet wonder why those not at the same society level are upset with them at times. It leads to the "haves" and the "have-nots."
It is important that those at the higher level need to realize that the faux level is just an illusion and that they, too, can get their asses beat in a New York minute, in places like, say, Amsterdam, for an example. This faux hierchy exists in each of the LGBT groups, with the trans community's so-called hierachy being the most pronounced.
We saw it was possible to come together for a brief moment in time, creating United ENDA, but the factions between all groups and within all groups could not tolerate unity for very long. The glue that bonded us all before Stonewall has dissolved and cannot be duplicated, until society falls into disaray. Then and only then will we come together for our survival.
MonicaHelms | September 5, 2008 5:02 PM
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Is this the "cis" privilege others are talking about? And can someone please give a description of the term for those who don't know what it means?
Bil Browning | September 6, 2008 12:00 PM
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Cisgender means the sex lines up with what society would expect in terms of gender, so a male-bodied man is cisgender.
poolboi | September 7, 2008 1:05 AM
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Cis-gender privilege :
The Non-Trans Privilege Checklist
1) Strangers don’t assume they can ask me what my genitals look like and how I have sex.
2) My validity as a man/woman/human is not based upon how much surgery I’ve had or how well I pass as a non-Trans person.
3) When initiating sex with someone, I do not have to worry that they won’t be able to deal with my parts or that having sex with me will cause my partner to question his or her own sexual orientation.
4) My politics are not questioned based on the choices I make with regard to my body.
5) I don’t have to hear so have you had THE surgery? or oh, so you’re REALLY a [incorrect sex or gender]? each time I come out to someone.
6) I am not expected to constantly defend my medical decisions.
7) Strangers do not ask me what my real name [birth name] is and then assume that they have a right to call me by that name.
8) People do not disrespect me by using incorrect pronouns even after they’ve been corrected.
9) I do not have to worry that someone wants to be my friend or have sex with me in order to prove his or her hipness or good politics.
10) I do not have to worry about whether I will be able to find a bathroom to use or whether I will be safe changing in a locker room.
11) When engaging in political action, I do not have to worry about the *gendered* repurcussions of being arrested. (i.e. what will happen to me if the cops find out that my genitals do not match my gendered appearance? Will I end up in a cell with people of my own gender?)
12) I do not have to defend my right to be a part of Queer and gays and lesbians will not try to exclude me from OUR movement in order to gain political legitimacy for themselves.
13) My experience of gender (or gendered spaces) is not viewed as baggage by others of the gender in which I live.
14) I do not have to choose between either invisibility (passing) or being consistently othered and/or tokenized based on my gender.
15) I am not told that my sexual orientation and gender identity are mutually exclusive.
16) When I go to the gym or a public pool, I can use the showers.
17) If I end up in the emergency room, I do not have to worry that my gender will keep me from receiving appropriate treatment nor will all of my medical issues be seen as a product of my gender. (Your nose is running and your throat hurts? Must be due to the hormones!)
18) My health insurance provider (or public health system) does not specifically exclude me from receiving benefits or treatments available to others because of my gender.
19) When I express my internal identities in my daily life, I am not considered mentally ill by the medical establishment.
20) I am not required to undergo extensive psychological evaluation in order to receive basic medical care.
21) People do not use me as a scapegoat for their own unresolved gender issues.
dyssonance | September 7, 2008 1:35 AM
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...when I happen to wind up in ER, my privacy & dignity are not violated by a constant stream of people keen to catch a look at the Freak-of-the-Week. AND, if I am there for, say, an Arm injury, I do not have to fend off ludicrous "justifications" from the prurient as to why they "need" me to take my pants off.
thaniel | September 7, 2008 2:49 PM
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Bil wrote:
Cis Privilege illustrated:
The Christie Lee Littleton Story.I have dual UK/Australian nationality. I'm in a situation where in the UK I could only marry a woman, and in Australia, I could only marry a man. Neither country recognises same-sex marriages.
To those who are Trans*, such legal idiocies are only to be expected. We have to cope with them every day, in matters great and small.
Cis Privilege means that the idea that such absurdities could happen in this day and age would never occur to you.
It means it never enters your head that you could be refused a driver's license, or a passport. It means that travelling over an international border, you don't face a genuine and quantifiable risk of being denied entry, and incarcerated in a holding facility where you *will* be abused and *will* be exposed to HIV. If you survive. It means you don't get issued travel documents good for leaving your country of citizenship, but not returning. It means that if mugged, it never occurs to you that if you go to the police about it, you'll likely be arrested. It means if you lose your job, there is not a 50/50 chance you'll never work again, not even at minimum wage. It means you don't have to travel hundreds of miles just to find a medic who will treat you.
These are all possibilities for us, some unlikely, some all but certain, depending on where you are. I'm lucky, I've had it easier than anyone else I know. But three of those things on that list have happened to me.
Cis Privilege means you don't know what Cis Privilege is, and are understandably dubious that it could exist.
Zoe Brain | September 10, 2008 1:32 AM
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A bit late, but I missed this until I saw Zoe quoting it.
Here's a fairly long cis privilege checklist. If you're familiar with Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack, this is similar, just...longer.
Lisa Harney | September 10, 2008 1:35 AM
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Thanks Lisa - I wasn't quoting it, I hadn't seen it before. My list was of things that had happened to me, or people I know personally.
Now would be a good time to remind Bil that he can't possibly be blamed for not knowing this.
4 years ago I didn't either.
Zoe Brain | September 10, 2008 3:27 AM
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Absolutely, knowledge of this stuff doesn't come to anyone automatically.
Lisa Harney | September 10, 2008 3:31 AM
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Thanks everyone. While I know what "cisgender" means, it wasn't that many months ago that I saw it and thought, "What the hell is that?" I figured some of our readers might not have a clue either and since it's used often, we should spell it out clearly.
Thanks for the short definition, poolboi, and the longer explanations and examples, Lisa, dyssonance, Thaniel and Zoe.
Bil Browning | September 10, 2008 8:21 AM
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One thousand starving people will band together to demand food.
One thousand starving people will fight with each other over one hundred meals.
The best way to get one thousand people to stop begging for food is to give them one hundred meals and let them fight over them.
Cindi Knox | September 8, 2008 8:23 AM
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What in the world does that even mean?
quiteneil | September 9, 2008 6:21 PM
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I must admit, I didn't get it either.
Bil Browning | September 10, 2008 8:22 AM
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I get it Cindi, but it may be a bit too "Eastern Philosophy" a presentation for some. :)
Actually, it's a grreat line of logic, something I usually avoid at all costs.
Melanie Davis | September 11, 2008 2:20 AM
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GLBT, as Joyce and Cindi illustrate, are themselves single digits that each represent a disparate group of people. For instance, taking the T (because I know that grouping well), we have drag queens, drag kings, f2ms, HBS, genderqueers, transsistas, transbrothas, intersexed people, preop m2fs, postop m2fs, ballroom girls and guys, nonops,crossdressers (who can be het, bi, or gay), clubkids, and ___________(I'm sure others can fill this gap in with other classifications of T). All of the above, for the most part, circulate in their own groups and with their own friends and acquaintances, and often do not mix with other T people who identify differently by age, race, equipment, or bedroom preference.
How you come out as T will indicate your group. T support groups are mainly white middle-class middle-aged M2F crossdressers and preops/nonops. It's not that they mean to be that way, I've been in many a support group meeting where everyone wondered why there were so few POCs and f2ms present; the answer is that if you have none, none will join. Pageants and ballrooms are the outing of choice for many people of color, often the children of very conservative parents who disapprove of their gender diversity, often to the point of being kicked out prior to their 18th birthdays; the ballroom becomes their home. Young people often experiment with and flout the societal rules of gender, feeling that there's no reason they can't wear a short dress and makeup, or wear men's clothes and practice masculine grooming habits if they have an F on their IDs - they don't want to sit in a circle and discuss makeup, hormone regimens and surgery options. And the folks identifying as IS and HBS have written eloquently in the past about how they differ.
That's just T. I'm sure the GLB each break down into subgroups by economics, age, skin color/heritage, belief systems, etc., in the same way.
What binds, or should bind, GLBT? The fact that our enemies hate all of us equally. A bigoted HR person doesn't care what kind of GLBT you are: you're here, you're queer, and you ain't getting hired. The guys in the white hoods and pseudomilitary militia uniforms aren't going to ask you who you actually sleep with: if you look too butch or too effeminate, death may happen. Two people who love one another and are ready to commit to a lifetime together should be able to enjoy the legal benefits and social recognition of marriage, no matter what letter's on their IDs. You might ID as a woman of transgender experience, but if the man you're with finds out you used to be Allen instead of Alice, your explanation may well fall on deaf ears and you may be the victim of a crime of passion. You might be a person who has grown up wanting the chance to serve his or her country, but you are blocked from doing so if you don't wish to hide who you are.
Another binder is the fact that GLBT often blurs the lines between each. Is the crossdresser who sleeps with men when enfemme, and a wife when in drab, not also B? How about the short, slender, limpwristed guy whose co-workers regard as "light in the loafers" - isn't he being identified by his variance from the societal norms of his gender? How about the husky, big-boned woman, about whom the others who meet her whisper "dyke"? Aren't they also T, to a degree? The marriage issue and T people certainly blurs the lines: if a preop and postop M2F couple marry, is it straight or gay? I'd say the answer is yes either way. Is a man married to a postop in a gay marriage? How about a preop? How about an f2m married to either? How about a lesbian married to either?
We're all in this together, thrown in together by those who oppose us. As one with an international relations degree, I equate it to the Allies in WW2, who were forced to be allies because they were all attacked in kind. The gays are the Americans, the lesbians are the English, the bis are the French, and the T's are the Soviet Union, when you think about it. We really don't understand each other, and in the case of the Ts/Soviets, we don't understand many of the people inside our own borders. I have no doubt that, in the future, when gay bashing is extremely rare, when prejudice in the workplace doesn't happen anymore, when marriage is between 2 people that love each other regardless of gender marker, and when anyone of age who qualifies for the military may serve, this shaky coalition will probably not need to exist anymore. But for now, we're all in it together - and in general, human beings get along best when they understand each other.
Polar | September 5, 2008 6:22 PM
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Very well said, Polar. I love that last line and I agree whole-heartedly. But how do we get across to each other that this tie is more important than the tiny segments we build for ourselves?
Bil Browning | September 6, 2008 12:03 PM
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That's the challenge, isn't it? The shared belief in equal rights and safety should be enough. The knowledge that any time civil rights laws have been won at the Federal level, it's been done by a broad coalition, should also be enough. That's the true shame in what happened last year: it not only exposed the divisions of so many people, all across the GLBT spectrum, it flat drove the wedge in, and only now is it truly obvious to all what has been wrought. It exposed not just the divisions of the GLBT, but the internal divisions of each letter. And, ultimately, it happened because we just don't know enough of each other, not the issues or philosophy, but the actual people.
I doubt Barney Frank or Joe Solmonese (and those who tell him what to do) would have done what they did last year, if they had T people as important parts of their lives, not just as political activists, but as friends and acquaintances and co-workers. I don't mean in the Sarah Palin-istic sense of "I have gay friends, I'm not prejudiced", but in each of us knowing each other to the point that we don't discuss GLBT matters as the only conversation point, but that we instead talk about how badly the Bengals suck again this year, the great movie we saw over the weekend, and so forth, around the water cooler. I wonder if Barney or Joe have ever discussed the book they've just finished, or the Red Sox, or maybe how great the concert they attended the night before was, with a T person, That goes both ways, at this point, many T people are resentful and distrust gay and lesbian people in general, and aren't having that conversation, either. In fact, an unwritten rule of workplace gender transition is that the first person who'll cause you problems at work will be the gay man or lesbian woman. That needs to end, too. Hell, the "I have black friends" is still heard, and people still look suspiciously at a man and woman being close platonic friends with no sex involved.
So, the solution is.......every T taking a lesbian and a gay man to lunch? Where're you bi folks at, anyway, we really ought to know each other better, to. Certainly, we need to get to know each other better as people, as groups. And when many subtypes of T don't go to lunch with each other (when's the last time a pageant girl, clubkid, or drag queen/king was up in time for the lunch buffet, and the HBS types aren't about to sit across a table from a mere crossdresser, they're not "like us, dear"), that might be hard to arrange. More food for discussion, I guess.
Polar | September 6, 2008 4:03 PM
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One thing that strikes me as interesting about this post, and particularly the responses to it, are the degree to which our commonalities and bonds are founded in a shared enemy.
I understand where this is coming from, and I get it, but I can't help but wonder if there is an affirmative, more positive way to frame the conversation? It's not that I don't think anger can be productive, but I also think that identifying ourselves based on what we are not forces us to constantly reify those borders of "us" and "them" - and I think contributes to the perpetuation of a lot of shittiness within, amongst, and across our communities. (Transphobia, and particularly transmisogyny, within lesbian separatist communities; racism, classism, and transphobia in mainstream LG(B?) communities, sexism in gay male communities, biphobia and derision of femmes in dyke communities, and so on and so forth.)
For me, a politics of liberation is about more than just a common enemy. There are commonalities in the forces that have worked against us, no doubt, and that's important to recognize in analysis and strategizing, but I also want to find solidarity in our shared success and liberation. As I work towards expanding freedom of expression, identification, and binary-shattering thought, I do it on behalf of my own well-being, on behalf of the people I love, and on behalf of everyone pursuing self-determination.
Jo | September 5, 2008 7:34 PM
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Wow, Jo. You really struck a chord with me on this comment. As you can see, I've been working my way down the comment thread and responding. I've agreed with the "common enemy" rationale often.
But I really like the way you're reframing it. Can you expand on that a little further, please? How do we reframe that for ourselves?
Bil Browning | September 6, 2008 12:06 PM
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As I replied in the other article, I don't think there's a perfect thread, anywhere, just a general overall need for community which lessens as the roots that drive it lessen. Technically, the closest thing to a thread is non-heteronormativity, but that thread gets stretched thin as we pull apart.
Common enemies, common goals, common perceptions from the outside (i.e. the codependence between homophobia and transphobia), common habit (gender expression, which not only transgender people transgress)... these all drive the various needs to form community, and the needs will be different to each of the needy -- and of different intensity.
That doesn't mean that I don't believe in the benefits of community. I don't believe in dwelling on all the different labels and divisions, or being intolerant of what I haven't experienced or may not understand. I suspect that there are many who feel the same, and hence we find ourselves here.
In short, you don't always have to "know nothin'" -- as long as you're receptive to listening and respecting.
Mercedes Allen | September 5, 2008 7:54 PM
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But how do we move past the divisions and labels, Mercedes? How do we truly create a community based on common bonds and experiences instead of separating ourselves? Isn't that the human condition - to constantly seek to differentiate ourselves from "them?"
Bil Browning | September 6, 2008 12:09 PM
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Monica pretty hit the nail on the head with her comment, although I must say the end was a bit fatalistic for my taste. We have to wait until society falls into disarray before we come together for our survival? I'm thinking that's a touch dramatic and I know a thing or two about drama, Monica. ;-) The fine folks at GLAAD, The Trevor Project, The Triangle Foundation, etc. might find that a little over the top. I think it's pretty important to try to remain optimistic, even when being realistic.
Look, I understand wholeheartedly the need to feel at ease with like minded people. I understand the need to identify with a group. Starting to pick issues about a heirchy in the lgbtq (M-O-U-S-E...) community about who has more clout begins to smack of Bette Davis saying, "I (her name) will never be below the (movie) title". In different parts of the world different factions of our separate, but equal clan have more sway, more visability and a larger voice. We can work to equalize in those areas, but let's not be more divisive in the interim.
Regardless of who organized first or who has more clout with powerbrokers, politicians, celebrities, and the public, we are all united in certain ways. I think first and foremost its important to remember that we are united even though the causes that unite us may be vastly different. We have been discriminated against through some means because we are different, usually because of sexuality. We have had incredible difficulty overcoming social stigmas to be seen as an equal part of the human race. We face a varied set of unique health care issues. The list goes on...
While I may be a "G" in the acronym that has become our community, that's not how I prioritise my place either in our community or in life. I always try to remember that I am no better than anyone else on the planet (Which is a bitter pill when I think about the republican party). If I see someone getting beaten in the street I don't stop to ask how they self identify: I usually (Depending on the situation) try to intervene on behalf of the most injured person.
Maybe it is necessary at this point in time to hold onto our letters... To discuss what we think our individual letters mean and how we interrelate with other letters... To agree to disagree at times. While we are all different, I'd suggest that we try to remember what unites us as opposed to what divides us. That we remember that any person disenfranchised because of sexual discrimination can easily fall under the umbrella of our community.
Is it difficult to be a part of such a large and diverse group? Of course it is! I think often that we have become so divided that we forget the other flavors of ice cream in the parlor. I still get into discussions with every initial of the cummunity defending the place of "camp" men to those who say we're (I'm self defining as camp here -- Couldn't you tell from the Bette Davis quote?) detracting from the whole movement.
Is it disheartening? You bet. Am I going to stop defending myself from those who say I don't belong here? Not a chance. (I used to say "When hell freezes over," but I live about an hour away from Hell, Michigan and yes, it does freeze over quite frequently.) We all belong. We're all important. We're all human.
Steveck | September 5, 2008 7:55 PM
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Maybe a bit over the top. I write sci-fi, so that should give you a clue. But, at times, I get the impression that it would take something that drastic to get HRC to see that they need the support of people rather than their money, especially when money becomes worthless.
MonicaHelms | September 6, 2008 2:30 AM
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A sci-fi writer! I'm sort of a huge sci-fi "geek" so I'm a fan. I loved your post, it was observative and really accurate I thought, but that ending just sort of threw me. And I understand your frustration with the HRC. To be fair though, there's so much apathy it can be difficult to get people to support moving off the sofa let alone commit time and energy to a group even if that group has their best interests at heart.
One of the things that can make me really crazy is the apathy thing among many gay people. I mean, how much time to we spend at the gym on treadmills to nowhere when we could be actively exercising in the real world? (Don't look at me, I am so not a gym bunny.)
Steveck | September 6, 2008 3:01 AM
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I find myself tending to agree with Monica on this one, Steve. It might be overdramatic a bit, but it sure does feel like something dramatic will have to force us all back into a commonality that we can all accept and work within.
I try not to prioritize my position either, but don't we find ourselves doing it subconsciously? As in when I was willing to ditch transfolk in the HRO? While I can look back now and see it for the stupidity it is, at the time I only saw it as helping as many people as I could as quickly as I could.
Bil Browning | September 6, 2008 12:14 PM
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Politically, yes, it makes sense for LGBT to be recognized and treated as a group. I thank Julia Serano for pointing out in her book Whipping Girl, (she probably wasn't the first to do so), that it is in the community's best interest to include trans. If we don't include trans, that just leaves another loophole for employers, to discriminate against all of us.
As for creating websites that are geared for LG or LGBT or LGBTQA. I'm not in that particular line of work, so I haven't really thought it out. But I sympathize with your efforts and I think this site is one of the better ones. (that's a compliment, albeit a small one)
siouxsie | September 5, 2008 8:49 PM
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