Bumped back up to the top for more discussion
It seems like a good time to do another installment of Stuff Bil Doesn't Know Enough About™. This week's question is in direct reference to two other blog posts inspired by my post admitting I have questions about feminist and transgender issues and encouraging others to add their own questions so we could have a community dialogue.
Over at Questioning Transphobia, Lisa brought up the inherent privilege in my request for answers. The comments section on her post are very interesting even though some of them really take me to task. On Father Tony's discussion a commenter took a different tone that I want to highlight. Question below and comment additions after the jump.
Why must trans people primarily bear the burden for educating cis people? Why do some cis people not do some of their own education to learn about the issues before the questions begin?
Why is the education itself necessary to justify equal civil rights protections?
Keep in mind that everyone participating in the discussion is writing from their own experiences. Please be patient and civil in your comments. Let's learn from each other!
To help expand a little further on Lisa's question, I've clipped some of the comments from her thread that really stood out to me. These are not complete comments. Check out her post to get the full flavor of the discussion.
Kristin says: It is not the job of trans people to hold our hands and teach us Trans 101. I think that's the issue here. When a cis person enters a discussion and demands to be educated by a trans person, that's an act of entitlement that comes from privilege.
...
That you seem to believe that your questions are so benign and well-meaning suggests to me that you really *might* do well to do some research before stomping into ongoing conversations that various communities are having.Allie says: Bil, I think you're not quite understanding why trans people feel that placing the burden of education on us is wrong. We're not asking for special recognition, special rights, etc., but to be treated like human beings and to have society recognize our rights just as they would any cis person. Whether you've intended to or not, the position you've taken relegates us to second-class or inhuman status, and then requires us to prove to you why we deserve to be on the same footing as you. You say it's our fault that you're not educated enough to consider us equals, and that it's also our fault that people don't respect our rights.
Jo says: A hierarchy is established and promoted (generally by the person seeking education, though not always explicitly) in which there are the "good queers/transfolk/women/poc/etc" (ie the ones who try to educate), and the "bad queers/transfolk/women/poc/etc" (ie the ones who make this big fuss about PROCESS) who stand in the way of REAL, VALUABLE education.
...
That's something that I think is often overlooked and obscured, but is REALLY important. And it's important for those of us who are cast in the role of "good queer/woman/transperson/poc/etc" to remember as well, having been that person over and over again, because it's super shitty if someone can (even unknowingly or unintentionally) manipulate systems of oppressions to use our voices to silence our own.
Meanwhile, over at Father Tony's pad, one of the commenters took umbrage at the tone of our and Lisa's discussion and the backlash that my request for more information sparked.
The reaction you are getting especially at the blog cited above is an avalanche of hatred and mockery of your "innocence" which is being seen as the dilettantism of your gay male power and privilege. They deride you as having been off having your privileged gay lives of male separatism wherein your sex, parties, money, consumerism, silliness, etc. prevented you from any interest in the developments of oppression politics, New Gender Theory, transactivism, 3rd wave feminism, etc. As many blog posters said, this ignorance alone disqualifies you from any input into Queer discourse, politics, community activity or especially trans anything. Sit on your white gay male thrones of privilege and shut the fuck up. That is the message that is being sent to you. Why can you not hear it? I don't understand why you are hitting your head against a brick wall that is not going to welcome your advances; indeed mocks and spits on them?
So what are your thoughts, Projectors? Is it better to ask for the information I lack and ask the community under discussion to provide more education to me and other allies? Or should we educate ourselves? Is it demeaning to ask identity groups for help in understanding their issues, or, as I posit, is the knowledge-sharing an integral part of achieving the community's agenda?
Personally, while I can see that it's a place of privilege to ask for information from a minority group, I don't see any other possible alternative that's 1/10th as effective. No one can advocate on behalf of a minority group if they aren't versed in the issues and nothing provides nearly the amount of education as a personalized back-and-forth. Like it or not, Congress members aren't going to take the time to sit around and read books or blogs about the issue; it's going to take lobbying by informed individuals - often advocates outside of the specified minority. It's in the community's best interests to provide as much education as possible.
The floor is yours.




You know, Bil, I saw a few of these comments and I was thinking about writing something up myself about it. I talked about this with you before you posted that post about transfolk a week ago, and I'm thinking there's some misinterpretation going on here.
I think that if we take this as "Bil Browning has decided that he needs to know more about trans issues, so start explaining it to him," then, like, yeah, it sounds insulting, privileged, and just a bit petulent.
But since we tlaked about it beforehand, I think how you meant it was "There are lots of people who don't know enough about trans issues, so Bil's going to try to start this conversation by fully confessing to his own ignorance." (IMHO this was a better choice than "Hey, you idiots who don't know anything, we're going to try to teach you!" It's politer, and politer rules.)
There was a commenter who mentioned the fact that you could just pick up a book and educate yourself, and if the idea was the first, then that'd make sense. There are plenty of great books out there about transgender people. But since it's more along the lines of the latter question, then, you know, I'd just say that there could also be great blogs out there too and this should be one of them.
Overall, I think it's a good use of this blog space for that type of education. People may come to read about national politics or LGBT activism or whatever, and if they learn a bit about what we're doing as a community, learn a bit about trans folks, that's all the better.
I don't know the answer to the question, but I can just say that someone's going to have to do the educating. I remember getting really offended at inadvertantly homophobic comments from friends back in college, and not even wanting to explain why those were offensive. But it was something that someone had to do, and I probably would have done better to not be so haughty about it.
Especially since no one's being forced to answer, and some people just love explaining their own people to others who aren't that familiar (yes, they exist).
Although this doesn't let non-trans people off the hook either. No "I just don't understand trans people so I can make fun of them all I want!" along the lines of John Aravosis, Andrew Sullivan, and Rex Wockner. There's not knowing and there's not wanting to know, and the first is forgivable in my book. But the latter seems to sheild themselves in the language of the former and I can see how it can get annoying after a while to hear the same people make the same shitty statements and that it doesn't sound all to different from people who are making a mistake for the first time.
(Also, your original post was about trans issues, feminism, and queer theory, but people seem to have gotten stuck on the transgender aspect. I wonder why that is, although no one really cares if you don't understand queer theory. Even the people who get into it seem to think it's bullshit... in fact, if I read Foucault correctly, that's a basic requirement.)
Alex Blaze | September 15, 2008 11:08 AM
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Alex, you make a good point that no one is forced to answer a question posed in this forum. I think this makes the problem of privilege/entitlement demanding explanations different from when it occurs in person.
In such a real world situation, the asker truly is imposing on the would be explainer. But here, no one in particular is being told they are expected to account for themselves (or their group). If someone does choose to respond with an explanation, their decision is purely voluntary. If they choose not to respond, no one is going to think twice about it.
Dale | September 15, 2008 11:53 AM
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I read stuff like the first batch of comments and getting the feeling "damned if you do and damned if you don't."
Some trans people get offended when we ask questions to better understand gender identity issues and then get offended if we don't get it. How are we supposed to get it if we don't talk to one another?
As a Black man, I don't expect non-Black people to just understand what it means to be Black. As a gay man, I don't expect non-gay men to just understand what it means to be gay. And, I don't feel it a burden when people ask me about being either of those things.
It took me a long time to understand what being gay means and I am gay. So, I don't expect non-gay people to automatically know what I think and feel.
Similarly, I am guessing that many trans people do a lot of thinking and soul searching in order to understand their gender identity and how they wish to express it. So, why would any expect people seeking to better understand trans issues not to ask questions?
My way of thinking is that it is better to ask questions that to just do something stupid.
Michael Crawford | September 15, 2008 11:17 AM
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Whose responsibility is it?
Everyone's.
It's the responsibility of people who don't know much about Trans* issues to find out. And it's the responsibility of Trans* people to tell others that they don't know too much, and to help provide that information.
I've commented about cis-privilege. But one thing that bothers me about my own privilege, being white, Australian and middle-class, is to be told by American Blacks "Oh, you can't understand how privileged you are".
Maybe I can, if I try hard enough, and listen to what they say. Maybe not fully understand, but I might gain an inkling.
Bil, you've done your bit. I hope I haven't come across as too arrogant in my own fulminations about "cis-privilege" and all that. Yes, it's real, and yes, those who are not Trans* are not initially aware of it. But it's not complicated, and I really think cis-people can understand, or at least get the gist.
They haven't experienced it themselves, any more than I've experienced what it must be like to be a WOC in the USA. But I read TransGriot, and I listen, and maybe I'm not an entirely clue-free zone as the result.
Monica's done an excellent job of edjumacating me on that. Did she have to? Or should I have done it on my own bat? I really don't see how I could, I don't even know what questions to ask. I'm glad she helped me, and grateful too. Maybe I should do a bit more of the same, out of a sense of balance.
In the ultimate, as long as it gets done, exact mechanisms don't matter. We should cut each other some slack. And not sweat the small stuff.
Zoe Brain | September 15, 2008 12:14 PM
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Thanks, Zoe. That means a lot coming from you.
You've never been heavy handed; I've learned quite a bit from you personally.
Bil Browning | September 17, 2008 4:38 PM
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Speaking for myself and from my experiences with other T's,lgb and cisgendered people I don't think it's appropriate for anyone to feel we should or are required to answer questions about being T.There are certain times and formats where I think it is the right thing to do and others where it can result in serious injury or death.Then there are questions that are appropriate and others that are down right insensitive.As for the feminist and queer part of the original post I think those would be better adressed in individual posts.
amym440 | September 15, 2008 12:35 PM
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I tried to keep this one mostly trans related, but it seemed the thread was common with a lot of feminist issues/blogs too.
Bil Browning | September 17, 2008 4:40 PM
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I'm sorry that you feel that way Amy. The one thing I have tried to impress upon the T* community here in Western Australia is that if they don't talk about being trans* then the trans* community remains the "unknown" in cisgendered/lgb peoples lives. People are generally frightened of the unknown and will discriminate against it because of that fear. The more we demystify what being trans* is, simply by answering their questions, the less we are discriminated against.
You have to remember that knowledge is power, and the more knowledge we give out freely, the more power the Trans* community will gain until one day we will be treated as equals. Refusing to give out that knowledge is just the same as saying, "No, I am happy to be discriminated against"
When I transitioned at work I asked the staff, all of 1600 of them, to email me questions, to ask me at lunch time and also provided a web page where they could leave their questions anonymously if they preferred. I got one anonymous question, about 100 emailed questions and to this day, over a year later, I still get people walk up to me, say hello and ask something they don't understand about me being transsexual. Numerous people have commented that making myself open to their questions made it easier for them to accept having a transitioning transsexual working with them. If being open to questions makes it easier for the next trans* person employed in the boys club that is the Department of Agriculture, then I consider all those questions worthwhile.
When we refuse to answer questions we reinforce the negative stereotypes of what it is to be trans* and we do a disservice not only to our selves but to all other trans* people out there. Essentially we have an obligation to all our sisters AND brothers out there to answer openly and honestly.
Cathii
Cathii Scott | September 19, 2008 9:50 PM
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Consider the possibility that saying "it's not trans people's responsibility to educate" doesn't mean "trans people should never educate." That's up to each individual person to decide.
The point of asserting this is to make it clear that trans people have boundaries. Often, people seeking education do not respect that and demand to know anything and everything, no matter how intimate and embarrassing.
It is also to make it clear that trans people do not exist to accommodate cis people, especially not at cis whims.
There is nothing wrong with, when a cis person starts asking invasive questions, giving them a reading list and saying "learn the basics."
When we make ourselves available to answer any and all questions at any time, we do a disservice to other trans people by establishing the expectation that it's okay to run roughshod over our boundaries.
And we're not responsible for negative stereotypes that cis people believe about us, and it is not cool to blame trans people who aren't polite enough about handling cis demands for perpetuating negative stereotypes.
Lisa Harney | September 19, 2008 10:05 PM
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Sometimes, I feel like a lot of people in the trans community start transitioning without any strategies for coping with oppressive behavior.
I know I didn't really have any.
Lisa Harney | September 19, 2008 10:09 PM
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Bil, Alex and Michael, I don't think that I have gotten upset whenever people ask for more education in trans issues. I have taken on that hundreds or times, in front of various university classes in two states. I have also educated many others over the years as well. It is one of the things you pretty much take for granted that you have to do if you spend any time as an activist.
What upsets me is someone like Barney Frank saying we haven't educated legislators, when he could help us with that as well if he cared. He doesn't care, so he blames us. Karl Rove would be proud. If he cared, he would give us names of legislators to consentrate on.
HRC is equally to blame in this area, when we have heard over and over and over again that when they visit legislators, they never say anything about us. YET, their mission statement says they suppose to advocate4 for us. Bullshit. They, too, refuse to give us names so we can focus our efforts on specifically legislators.
Bil, you have a popular blog and it is your particular form of communication, information and education. Why would you need a book or another web site when you have all of us to present to you and others thing you may not know a lot about? If people get upset, then they may not be a long-time activist who understands this is what we do.
I have a question for you, Bil. I have heard of some trans people accuse you of being transphobic at times. Can you honestly say that you have overcome or eliminated ALL the transphobia you may have had in the past . . . assuming you can honestly say you had any in the past? Honest?
MonicaHelms | September 15, 2008 12:37 PM
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That's great, and you were one of the people I was referring to when I said some people don't mind answering questions about their gender/race/nationality/religion/etc.
But I am. I can't not mention that I get annoyed sometimes having to explain what seems absolutely elementary to me. And I've been working on that, and I know I still have a way to go before I catch up to where a lot of the people on this site are, including you.
Re Barney Frank, I think that's the difference between "not knowing" and "not wanting to know" right there.
Alex Blaze | September 15, 2008 12:48 PM
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That's an easy answer. No.
That's why I put out the call for "more education needed." As I said in the original post, when bilerico.com started there was no trans inclusion. I was one of those gay men who thought all trans folk were just overly dramatic drag queens.
The blog has really given me quite the education in trans issues. By sparking the conversation through my own admission of my lack of depth on some issues, I hope to help educate others in the same way you've helped me.
You're a really good example, Monica. You've really helped several readers to understand trans issues better. Personally, I feel like I'm a better advocate because of you and other Projectors like you. While I could read any number of books on the subject, our back and forth and intellectual challenges to each other goes well beyond that. For example, when I lobbied Rep Baron Hill in Denver, I used a statistic that I know came from you in the comments section.
If that is the power of this blog, why should we hesitate to acknowledge our own failings and ask others for help in going further?
Bil Browning | September 15, 2008 1:27 PM
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I agree with what Monica says about Barney, and that's some of what fueled my personal reaction to the previous post.
Lisa Harney | September 15, 2008 8:43 PM
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I don't have anything that I want to add other than to say that I love Jo's comment. Reading that was a real "click" moment for me.
Nick | September 15, 2008 1:12 PM
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Make sure you visit Questioning Transphobia for the whole comment. I really cut it quite a bit for space limitations here. She goes into quite a bit more depth there.
Bil Browning | September 15, 2008 1:22 PM
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Thanks. I'm kinda late to get back into this discussion because I had no internet access yesterday, but when I get finished reading through the existing comments, I may expand on what Bil clipped of my comment from Lisa's blog.
Jo | September 19, 2008 12:58 PM
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I don't actually mind having to do some education, I just want to be treated as a normal person. I really do quite enjoy the chance to talk someone who is really interested in understanding through what it is to be transsexual.
What I don't like is to have to justify my right to exist as a woman and fighting common prejudices such as transsexuals are "just men who like to wear skirts". As a society, we should be so far beyond that that I get angry and deeply disappointed when I come across this, especially in the supposedly educated feminist and LGB circles.
The fact that you're asking questions, Bil, is just what I love to hear. You're not transsexual, so why should you understand us, but just the fact that you're open to understanding is the most important step.
Thanks, Bil! :)
Emily S | September 15, 2008 1:58 PM
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I saw the comments and thought they were a bit off the mark in this particular instances -- though I understand where they're coming from (more about that in a second).
As with a lot things, the intent and the spirit of the question, and the context in which it's asked, make a huge difference -- as Alex touched on in his first post. You came across as being genuinely interested in learning more. Unfortunately, you're feeling some of the frustration having to deal with folks like Barney Frank, certain rad-fems, clueless heteros, etc.
But by not distinguishing between people who are genuinely interested in learn more, but don't know where to start, and those who expect to be spoon-fed, we end up alienating potential allies. FWIW, I've seen the same sort of reaction on feminist blogs where men show wanting to be allies and get told to "go do their homework" first. Making people feel they're damned if they do and damned if they don't isn't a good way to make friends and influence people.
It's true that there are a number resources out there -- but what the "insiders" forgot is that while these resource may be obvious to those in the know, they're not necessarily obvious to outsiders. For example, sure I could use my Google-fu if I wanted to learn about the lives of the Alaskan on the island where you can see Russia or Iraqi refugees in the States, and I could certainly find some info. Would be accurate info, would it be info that members of these two groups felt was relevant? Maybe. But more likely maybe not.
Anyway, why some of the pushback? I don't presume to speak for Lisa or the other the Question Transphobia commenters, but here my take on it:
- Explanation fatigue. Trans people, feminists, etc. often do explain the basics over and over and over and over, and you just get tired of doing it. It's not that different than a dynamic I've seen in two decades of being in online forums and mailing list, where the old-timers get impatient with newbies after a particular topic gets discussed again for the n-th time. As Alex mentioned, it's feeling like having to explain something that's absolutely elementary -- but that's where everyone needs to take a step back and realize that if it were obvious, the genuine questioner wouldn't be asking.
- "I just want to know" trolling. Folks like Lisa have spent a fair amount of time in circles where trans people seem expected to justify themselves and their existence. Often that sort of dismissive challenging gets framed in "innocent" questions. Or even if it's not malicious, it's questions posed by people who seem clueless about the willful ignorance and/or privilege behind their line of questions. Much in the way, heteros, white people, rich people, etc. can be oblivious to their privilege -- and get defensive when it's pointed out.
- Frustrations at accusations that trans people, feminists, [insert group here] etc. "haven't done enough education." Usually made by people who don't really want to understand -- Barney Frank, Andrew Sullivan, John Aravosis, yeah I'm talking to you. (Often accompanied by an unwillingness to own their own shit, e.g. I don't bash trans people, I just want them excluded from ENDA, the
LGBLG movement, and think they're just icky. but that doesn't mean I'm transphobic.)So it can be easy to assume the worse when someone asks questions. Which is precisely what we need to guard against doing, since treating people that way can create a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Lena Dahlstrom | September 15, 2008 2:31 PM
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Your explanation really resonates with me. When I was in college I would do a trans 101 every 2-3 weeks for a year or two. Toward the end, I got one person who told me: "It's so great that you're doing this education, I'm glad you are because with it's education like this that changes things. If you just keep doing this education everything will be fine." It was incredibly kind and positive but it placed on the responsibility for changing the world on my shoulders.
Inside I felt like screaming at her that I do education like this so that people like her can participate and carry on the needed work, not so that she can feel okay setting aside her guilt and then go back to her daily life assured that I'm taking care of the problem. Of course I didn't -- because I was in educator mode instead of human mode and screaming doesn't bring anyone over to your side. But holding yourself back from screaming at things like that again and again for years can take its toll as well.
That's about when I stopped doing trans 101s regularly.
Tobi Hill-Meyer | September 15, 2008 4:22 PM
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Inside I felt like screaming at her that I do education like this so that people like her can participate and carry on the needed work, not so that she can feel okay setting aside her guilt and then go back to her daily life assured that I'm taking care of the problem.
FWIW Bil, this is exactly the sort of "privileged questioning" that ticks people off. Not that I think you were engaged in it. Rather, as others have said, it was a case of people letting presumptions based on past experiences color the here and now.
Lena Dahlstrom | September 15, 2008 5:55 PM
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Yes. I have spent time on radical feminist blogs answering questions, but you hit a certain point and they snap right back to the transphobia and homophobia*.
The point of my posting Bil's question and my answer on my blog wasn't to call people to arms to tell him to stop asking questions. I wanted more of a discussion and less of a fight than I got, and I didn't try to correct that partly because I ended up being away from computer for the better part of a day. I wanted to point out that being able to ask and expect an answer is a privilege of itself, and I was frustrated because I felt like there was a sense of "do trans people belong? Why do they expect to come in late and reap the fruits of other people's labors" running through a large number of questions like this from the LGB part of the community.
So while Bil himself wasn't saying those things, I wanted to respond because they come up so often.
Lisa Harney | September 15, 2008 9:42 PM
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I'm glad you brought this up, Lisa. I was just reading some of the comments and was going to address it myself.
I don't think shutting off discussion was Lisa's intent. Not in the least. I just thought she brought a very interesting angle to the discussion and her readers fleshed it out some more. Combined with the comment on Father Tony's, it made for an interesting topic.
Also, I don't need readers to defend me against the other comments on Lisa's site. I can hold my own. :) (And I don't think they were necessarily nasty or anything; they were just speaking from their own experiences.) I have a thick skin; I'm a blogger!
Bil Browning | September 15, 2008 10:12 PM
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Speaking as an M2F transgender/androgyne/whatever the heck it is that I am, I happened to have been born white male so I carry that privilege too. A lifetime of learning to identify that privilege doesn't guarantee that I have shed every last vestige of it in myself. But I'm working on it. It's a lifetime process. Same for ridding myself of internalized transphobia. None of us are immune.
I've written and submitted guest blogs at TBP because of the truly diverse community here and willingness to learn that I sense among fellow participants. And I continue to participate as a reader because I'm learning a lot from everyone here.
Yes, there are plenty of books you could read if you want. I doubt that all of us transfolks could agree on which ones though. I also believe that one of the strengths of TBP is engaging in dialog with each other as friends and compatriots in changing the world to be a better place for all of us. So feel free to ask questions, I'm here and willing to answer.
zythyra | September 15, 2008 2:47 PM
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I am going to be evil and invalidate the life experiences of thousands of men and women.
I think the comments mentioned in the posting are over-reacting to an ally's genuine request for help, and are contributing to the difficulties we all face.
all of us. Not merely trans. Not merely of color. Not merely gay or lesbian or bisexual.
All of us.
They do bring up good points. How does Bil feel about educating someone regarding being gay?
Me, I don't mind doing it. I mind when others who don't like to do so -- for whatever reason -- are told they *must* or they *have to*.
I will not always be agreed with. I do not favor many things which are popular in the internals of the trans community, and I use methods that sorta capitalize on my ability to take privileges of all sorts and use them in my efforts.
The responsibility rests with those who will take up the mantle of doing so.
Transpeople bear the burden because they are *not* privileged. There is no right to privilege and intimate understanding of a group that's not only not uniform, but far more diverse a letter than any of the other three.
If one doesn't educate, then thee will be no change. IT is up to the persecuted to make it visible, and making it visible is education. Otherwise, they are silent, and nothing changes.
Cisfolk do not do research because *they do not know the questions to ask*. What is transgender?
Seriously. There's a simple definition of it, but that definition covers so many things that within one moment, one can get overloaded.
The education is not necessary to justify the civil rights protections. That question is filled with privilege all by itself.
The education is needed to make the violations of civil rights visible. Until is is seen, no one will know it is there.
It is always better to ask. A great way of asking starts with "do you mind if...".
If the answer is yes, they mind, then find someone else. Who will.
That doesn't mean that one should not do their own due diligence. For example, Bil, you have enough information already to start asking google a few questions. TO read wikipedia, and follow the links.
On another site, I spend far too much time countering lies.
Lies about LGBT people, in all manner shape and form. Personal and as discrete groups or a whole.
The question to ask comes down to "why lie?"
Seriously. The truth can be really damaging to the movement. There are enough ugly truths out there to stop us cold.
SO why the lies?
Well, occam's razor: they don't *know* the truth.
They don't know anything about us.
The same applies within our own worlds. We don't know enough about each other. So there are myths and lies within our own community.
Hell, a good third of the projectors here on this very site have bought into the framing of our fight *by the other side* instead of reframing it from our own.
So all of us need to do more self education. All of us need to do our own digging around.
Is it demeaning? Depends on the person. I'm evidence of that, by myself.
Do I knock myself out banging my head against a wall?
yep.
But instead of cursing the wall, I get up and keep doing it. And in doing so, I've knocked down a lot of walls.
dyssonance | September 15, 2008 3:49 PM
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No, I don't mind. In fact, I speak on a lot of panel discussions, etc about being gay.
But that's just me. I can recognize that others have no interest in doing anything like that and don't feel like they are obligated to do so.
Bil Browning | September 17, 2008 4:43 PM
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Okay, as for me, I like talking to people about what it has beant for me to be trans and what I know of the greater trans experience, which isn't all that much. I think that personal, direct education goes beyond the droll academic books and the "Hey, look at me!!!" autobiographies to give a real sense of who a trans person is. Dialogue, back and forth, agreements and arguments, and the planting of the seeds of understanding in each-other's heads. Ask away, some people will give you a walloping for your cis-bourne ignorance, but how the hell else are you supposed to get beyond it? Those comments of "go educate yourself" are understandable, and a part of the problem as well.
So, I would encourage you to start local. Talk to some local trans folk and listen to their stories. You're going to get a lot of horror stories along with a healthy(?) dose of bitterness and some paranoia, self-pity, and unvented anger. Decades of living in your own version of a POW camp will do that to a person. But you will also find strength, determination, intelligence, love, and, sometimes, bliss.
Working at Borders gave me more than just a window into future poverty, I got to meet a ton of trans people from Andrea James to my favourite transman about town whose name shall be kept secret. Drag queens and kings, CDs, TVs, genderqueers, mtf, ftm, intersexed transfolk, androgynes, the whole spectrum waltzed or tiptoed through the book stacks. We're legion, so find one of us willing to talk about things, and then find another. All of us experience this life differently, and all share common threads. It's finding those commonalities athat allows us to understand the differences on a personal level.
I don't believe that those with privilege have to be humbled and humiliated before they can be educated. You're gay, you know what it feels like to be in a minority group with diminished rights and a dominant culture that marginalises you (despite your white maleness), you might be able to empathise with the female and trans experiences eventhough you will never "know what it's like" to be a woman or trans. Anybody who keeps beating that horse of "you can't understand" is not looking for allies. Walk away from that scene.
As for gaining a feminist perspective, the same advice hods true, you just have to listen to and observe the women and world around you. It's easy to forget the cultures of those around us. I don't see male culture much any more, something for which I am grateful, but it also isolates me and I have lost perspective there. I have no sense of African-, Asian-, Native-, Chilean-, & etc.- American cultures in Indiana, but I can see how they are portrayed in the local media, or not protrayed, and I can keep my circle of friends open to accept whomever may stumble along into it. Through them, and their perspectives, I increase my own.
So read a little for blogs and books are only background, static information, and occasionally look over the laptop monitor at the people in the café. Engage your fellow life forms, and find the answers you're looking for.
Okay, this is rambling and kind of repetitive, but I have a 3yo , so you'll have to excuse.
As an aside, who gets to call themselves a cis-transgendered person.
Melanie Davis | September 15, 2008 5:17 PM
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I don't believe that those with privilege have to be humbled and humiliated before they can be educated.
Agreed. To be honest, I've seen this sort of attitude in a variety of places and it's not only wrong, but counter-productive.
Being an ambassador of "my tribe" constantly can get tiring -- even though I also like talking about trans issues, especially since they're so few public crossdressers.
But what's the alternative? While in theory it's all well and good to argue that the oppressed shouldn't be responsible for educating the privileged (or those who are also oppressed but less so than us), the reality on the ground is that if we don't tell our stories, who will? If we don't educate others, who will?
Lena Dahlstrom | September 15, 2008 5:50 PM
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BTW, Father Tony's observation that:
The reaction you are getting especially at the blog cited above is an avalanche of hatred and mockery of your "innocence" which is being seen as the dilettantism of your gay male power and privilege.
I think has some truth to it. In a variety of contexts I've seen "grass is greener" thinking by members of "second class" groups toward those they see as privileged. Which in turn can drive envy and resentment that gets expressed in this sort of angry.
I'm definitely not implying privilege doesn't exist. Rather that that it gets idealized -- much like Eddie Murphy's SNL skit, "White Like Me," where white people give each other free stuff and have wild parties on the bus when black people aren't around. The problem in talking about privilege this way is that it rarely resonates with the experiences of those who are indeed privileged.* It's true privilege is "the wind at your back that you don't even feel" so that often hard for people to discern, let alone own their privilege. But such idealized pictures of privilege are often at with how people experience their lives -- and over-hyping makes it easy for them to (wrongly) dismiss any idea that they might be privileged.
* For example, I've heard from several trans men who had previously been lesbian separatists, that there was a huge disconnect between the lives they're now leading as men and what they thought it would be like. Yes, they most definitely gained privilege, but there were trade-offs and costs that they're never imagined. Nora Vincent experienced similar feelings during her 18-months posing as man, documented in her flawed-but-well-worth-reading book, "Self-Made Man."
Lena Dahlstrom | September 15, 2008 6:16 PM
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Read all of Dwerk's comment at Father Tony's blog, btw. It's rather, er, enlightening as to the speaker's intentions.
Lisa Harney | September 15, 2008 9:49 PM
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Agreed. Completely.
I clipped the pertinent part since quite a bit of it was rather, well, distasteful.
Bil Browning | September 15, 2008 10:07 PM
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Just so we're clear, I was not quoting Father Tony, but a commenter on Father Tony's blog.
Everyone got that? No getting bad opinions of Father Tony anyone... It wasn't him. :)
Bil Browning | September 15, 2008 6:41 PM
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Oops! My bad.
Lena Dahlstrom | September 15, 2008 6:59 PM
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Thanks Bil,
I was reading through these comments wondering when I'd get to one that wrongly assumed I had said those things. And, as an fyi, I never read Dwerk's comment on my post all the way through until you highlighted it above. He certainly ought to keep away from caffeine.
This entire discussion has been permanently worthwhile, for me at least.
Father Tony | September 15, 2008 10:18 PM
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Before tackling the question, I think it pays to remember the frustration of having to explain yourself to your family, friends, co-workers (especially for transsexuals who transition in place and have a very visible and apparent process on a stage in front of everyone), and then seeing a whole bunch of prejudices and assumptions trump everything that you've just said, anyway. It's tiring, repetitive, and sometimes feels just pointless.
When we talk about whose responsibility, we're not just talking about doing the dirty work and telling people. There's a responsibility to listen and absorb the information, a responsibility to respect (which should be in place before a word even needs to be spoken), a responsibility to seek out more and varied information, and a responsibility to be patient (usually on the part of the transwoman or transman, because short explanations don't usually account for the whole diversity of the community, so there are bound to be some points of confusion). The latter is what I'd say needs to be in place when it comes to allies who don't grok absolutely everything but just honestly want clarification.
I don't believe that everyone has a requirement to be "out." We earn the right to stealth if we want it (although it doesn't always work out that way).
That said, I do think that there is some responsibility for the community as a whole to get our stories and accurate information out there. If we don't, you can be sure that misinformation will propagate like stink.
Mercedes Allen | September 15, 2008 6:53 PM
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One thing I forgot to mention is that for every person we do tell our stories to, there are many more who will hear it. I can't remember how many people have come back to me and said that they told their friend(s) about me, or about this trans person they know after trans people came up in a conversation. And when I kind of wince and ask what they said or how it was received, the response was almost universally positive.
It gets back to that planting a seed thing. The more people who are touched in a positive way, the farther into oblivion falls the Jerry Springer image of us. That's why I get so upset when I see smart young women who refuse to call themselves feminists though their beliefs are feminist in nature. Limpbaugh and the religious reich have succeeded in turning the collective definition of feminist into a slur. If I hear "I'm not a feminazi or anything..." as an excuse to drop the feminist identity, I'm going to swap Rush's Viagra with nitroglycerine.
Melanie Davis | September 15, 2008 8:38 PM
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Bil,
I get so tired of having education thrown up in my face. I have heard it for the last 42 years and been doing education that long at Universities, Colleges, High Shools and everywhere I have gone in that time and it always sounds like the same thing to me since about 1994. It's a stall for granting equal rights to transgender people by elitist GLB people who are just to lazy to look it up in Google or reae about it on a zillion websites.
The aficionado of this lament is Barney Frank and every other congressional offcie that throws our education material in the cicular file after we have left fromt heir offices.
What I want to know is how many classes are being given on Gay 101 or Lesbian 101 or Bisexual 101? I have never heard of a gay man going to a singular lesbian meeting to explain gay issues and the exact same thing happening with lesbians going to gay men's meetings, etc.
And please, don't tell me that the issues are all the same for gays, lesbians and bisexuals. That is just silly and anyone who has been out in the GLBT community for more than a nanosecond or reads GLBT publications, articles, blogs or participates in any exclusive Yahoo group knows full well that there was never, and still is, no gay group devoted to educating lesbians and visa versa.
Personally, I'm done with it. In this day and age of communications and the internet, people can find out anything they want to. And that is the key. Do they want to? So far it is obvious that many do not want to or even care to find out about transgender issues.
This leaves people like myself and other Trans activists, having to put on our "vice principle" hats and tell people to do their homework, which makes us sound angry. The fact is that we have every right to be angry about lazy people who put on a facade of caring, but don't go to Trans support group meetings or take the time to sit and talk and ask questions based on what they have already read. Instead all we hear is the constant drone of "more education please".
Every GLB person out there should understand by now, if it is Barny Frank that is asking to be educted more, then you know it is another polticial play to divert attention from the real issue of equal rights for Transgender people. At least I can give more credit to the intelligence of GLB people than Frank can.
It's very simple. To be able to express your own gender and live freely to do so, allows some people, like Transgender people, to experience a sense of ecstasy and joy. The main purpose of living is to experience as many moments of ecstasy and joy in a person's life as possible, before they die. Just like every other human being.
So there you have it! You are now educated about what our main issue is. Other people do not allow us the freedom to express our own gender, based soley by what we have between our legs and what a doctor told our parents what we appear to be when we were born.
Now that your educated, can you give us a hand at getting our equal rights? Is it to hard for some GLB people to understand that we all suffer from homophobia and that we have to fight it together?
You know, when my father was fighting in WWII to stop the Nazis and he landed in France, he didn't have to know how to speak French before they joined forces to beat the enemy. I guess sometimes you don't have to know all the details, when you have a common enemy.
Angela Brightfeather | September 16, 2008 12:23 AM
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Speaking of defending yourself, Bil, which you just said you don't need, you've just got to say that you were a POW.
I hear that works just fine and no one can criticize you after that.
Alex Blaze | September 16, 2008 5:35 AM
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Just a few days ago Gina wrote about an survey that asked for all women to participate in a research study, but it was worded in a way that specifically excluded trans women and ONLY trans women and reminded my strongly of Michfests "womyn born womyn" policy. The message seemed clear to me, trans women are not "real women". Many of the comments questioned why we would object to our exclusion and some even seemed to say "It seems like a reasonable policy to me, what's all the fuss about?".
Marriage equality advocate say that same sex families are "real families" and that exluding them from marrying is unjust. And it's true, they ARE "real families" and it is unjust. I'm sure most here agree.
When trans women insist that we ARE "real women" in abstract conversations there are many who agree with us. But when we are singled out for exclusion from women's places/activities/whatever, much of that support evaporates, even among our "allies". The attitude seems to be "if you want my support to affirm your basic humanity and rights, you'll first have to justify your existance to my satisfaction".
A common attitude among people is that if they don't understand something then it must be invalid. Trans people are constantly (constantly!) being questioned about our feelings and motivations for transitioning and our explanations are most often discarded in favour of pre-existing views and stereotypes.
To me this is the heart of the matter. Our identities simply aren't believed as valid by most people, including LGBs. I ask trans people out there, how many times have you explained your feelings and motivations to others that you know, such heart-felt and thorough stories that you were completely sure that they understood, that they "got it"? Only to be later disappointed by words and/or attitudes coming from them?
What I ask is this:
After listening to our explanations and our experiences, even if what we'd said leaves you completely befuddled and scratching your head, please, please acknowledge that we are still fully human, fully equal. That we DO deserve basic rights and protections from harassment and discrimination (ie: policies that exclude us, and ONLY us), even if you don't understand us.
Is understanding really required to recognize someone elses humanity?
Mouse | September 16, 2008 5:02 PM
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This. When these discussions happen, trans people are held to much higher standards than cis people, to the point that it is usually impossible to meet those standards.
The fact is that it should not be necessary to educate people on every aspect of our lives to justify our existence and access to civil rights. Our existence should be sufficient to justify our existence and access to civil rights.
The fact is, no matter what people understand or believe about trans people, we exist, and thousands - tens or hundreds of thousands - of us come with a rather similar (but not identical) set of stories about our lives and how they relate to sex and gender. We have these stories before the first time we hear the words "transsexual" or "gender identity disorder" or "genderqueer" or "transgender" or about hormones or surgery.
And the question should never be "Can we mind meld with people and implant intimate knowledge of our lives into their brains?" because that's simply not a fair demand, and yet it is the demand made of us whenever talk of education begins.
Being trans isn't a moral condition, it's not a delusion, it's not confusion about gender or identity. The problems and barriers trans people face are social - the fact that people do not believe we are who and what we say we are. There are reams of books and articles written by psychiatrists and medical doctors who have worked with trans people, who verify that this is the best treatment for who we are, that nothing else has worked. Why is this ignored?
Also, every word Angela Brightfeather said. I love her so much right now.
Lisa Harney | September 17, 2008 3:17 AM
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Also, like Mercedes said, while we have a responsiblity to educate, others have a resposibility to listen. It's the second part that isn't happening.
As I said, trans people are constantly being questioned and asked to explain/justify ourselves. Many happily answer hoping to dispel misconceptions and stereotypes.
Some of the most basic transexual issues are (imo):
Trans men ARE "real men".
Trans women ARE "real women".
We are also the full equals of all other men and women.
Full equality means full inclusion, NOT separate but equal.
- - - - -
We have tried to say this again and again and again and again and again til we are blue in the face, here and in countless other places. And, for the most part, our words aren't listened to, they aren't believed. Not deep down. Many say they support what we say, but all too often later words and/or attitudes from them make it clear that they don't really believe that we are "real men" or "real women" deserving full inclusion.
This is extremely exasperating, tiring and depressing. And I'm sure it's a big part of the reason for the anger towards requests for education.
Mouse | September 17, 2008 4:46 AM
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I think Mouse and Lisa have explained eloquently the frustrations trans people can feel at doing continual Trans 101 education -- and some of the push back about cis-gendered people needing to be willing to "do their own damn education."
That said, one of the useful lessons I learned about interacting with others is that one needs to focus on the here and now with the specific person at hand. In other words, yeah it's frustrating in the extreme to try to educate people who hold trans people to a much higher standard, and/or to people who aren't really interested in learning even if they claim their are -- but we need to be willing to set aside that past history and focus on whether the person we're interacting with now is willing to listen and learn. Not saying it's always easy to do.... I've had moment of "why am I the one who's gotta do all the educating" myself.
Lena Dahlstrom | September 17, 2008 3:02 PM
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I second that.
Melanie Davis | September 17, 2008 3:32 PM
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I also think of someone I know who basically had to leave school because she ran so many Trans 101 sessions and answered so many questions she had no time for herself to recover.
The problem with answering all questions to educate means that Trans boundaries are permeable while cis boundaries are not. And one of the most important things a potential supporter needs to learn is that trans people have valid boundaries.
Lisa Harney | September 17, 2008 8:10 PM
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I haven't thoroughly read all the comments here, but felt I'd give a little more background on the comment of mine that Bil quoted in his post, especially with regard to the comment from Father Tony's pad.
I am not angry with Bil, nor am I hateful, rude or attacking him. I genuinely feel his questions are well intentioned, but I do think he needs to alter his paradigm somewhat. We are not saying that we (those of us who have commented) refuse to answer questions about our transgender/transsexual status and lives. Rather, we're stating that it's unfair and unreasonable to expect trans persons to educate the ignorant on trans issues. If you're interested in equality, which includes all people, then you don't start out requiring explanations of why someone deserves the rights that you enjoy. In my opinion, anyway, the basic assumption is that all people have the same rights, yet they're not being recognized for some.
When you put yourself in the position that the burden of education and convincing of the privileged falls on the oppressed, you are part of the problem, not the solution. Again, I don't feel that Bil is mean-spirited, and I think he genuinely wants to know more on this subject. He's just gone about it the wrong way.
Bil, why not use many of the resources on the Internet to build your fundamental knowledge of transgender and transsexual people?. Using that knowledge as a starting point, you can then move to asking specific, detailed questions to better help you be effective in pursuing equality for everyone. Then we don't all have to waste time on the trans 101 stuff and can get right to the point.
Hopefully that explains my position a little better.
Allie | September 17, 2008 2:22 AM
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In fairness to Bil (and other well-meaning allies), I'd note that while those resources may be obvious to trans people, they're not necessarily to those who aren't. (Try finding 101 info about something you don't know much about -- e.g. Iraqi refugees in America -- and see how it can be hard to figure where to start.)
Sure one can google "transgender," "transsexual," "crossdresser" and get a lot of results, but if you don't know much about these subjects, can you tell if the sites listed are accurate and authoritative? Do they have agendas? Might some of them be out-and-out deceptive, like the "ex-trans" sites lurking out there.
Which is not to excuse people from doing their own homework. But personally, I'd prefer that they ask me for some recommendations about where are good sources for learning that fundamental info.
Lena Dahlstrom | September 17, 2008 2:49 PM
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While I was talking about asking for education, I offered a shedload of links for Bil (or anyone else) to read.
'Cause I never said I wouldn't educate. Why even maintain my blog if I don't?
Lisa Harney | September 17, 2008 2:51 PM
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I agree with Lisa on this point. I never said I wouldn't offer education or information about my own experiences. I said that I feel it's wrong for it to be EXPECTED that the trans community do all the education, with what amounts to no effort (other than coming to class) on the part of the cis society. But, to complicate things, we're not only expected to teach, but graded on how well we convince others that we're deserving of the same rights they enjoy.
Allie | September 17, 2008 8:20 PM
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Rather, we're stating that it's unfair and unreasonable to expect trans persons to educate the ignorant on trans issues.
If not us, then who? I'm not saying that you have the responsibility, yourself, just that members of the community are the best suited for dispensing information about the community. There are so many bad resources out there on the internet, why would you cast somebody adrift without knowing how to navigate the dangerous waters of ignorance? If you don't want to educate, I understand and that's cool, but I don't hold the same view, so sent the questioning my way! I'd rather guide people to good resources than to have them stop by some old, misguided, Money/Blanchard/Reperative therapy/Focus On The Family crap and have to un-learn the confused.
Some people are grass-roots activists, some are teachers, some are artists, some are doctors, some are mechanics. Thank you for your contributions, but please let the rest of us speak for ourselves.
Melanie Davis | September 17, 2008 3:27 PM
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Nobody said that we wouldn't educate or offer assistance. It's the expectation that we will teach them, or else our call for equal rights is invalid, that rubs me the wrong way.
If you require someone to educate you about themselves, including the things you likely won't understand, before you'd consider supporting their rights, you're not being an ally.
Allie | September 17, 2008 8:26 PM
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This thread has been fascinating and I might as well throw in my own two cents worth.
I will be the first to admit that I have a lot more to learn about transgender people. Fortunately I have had the opportunity to get to know a number of transgender people both in person and have also had several as guests on my John Selig Outspoken podcast.
From my discussions with transgender people and my own observations the fight for transgender equality is a good 10 years or more behind the fight for LGB equality. The good news is that positive movement is going on even though it feels frustratingly slow. Personally I was extremely proud of the LGBT community for getting solidly behind an inclusive ENDA bill. With the exception of the HRC our community was united in the necessity that it be LGBT and not LGB. Let's face it, how often is our community united on anything? I mean there are a bunch of Log Cabin Republicans endorsing and will be voting for McCain and Palin. I am so disgusted with the HRC over ENDA as well as some other issues that they have lost my support as long as Joe Solmonese remains at the helm.
With all of the above being said, any minority, any oppressed group makes progress by coming out and sharing their stories. Coming out is far more than telling somebody what or who you are but letting them get to know you and get to walk a mile in your moccasins so to speak. I cannot tell you how many times I have had to tell my story about coming out at the age of 37 after being married for 13 years, about raising my son as an out gay dad.
I have gotten tons of questions from all sorts of people, many of the the same but some different. Some questions have been insightful and some have been absurd. But I have always looked upon the opportunity to share my story, whether in person, in print or via electronic media as a tremendous opportunity to change minds. I love the questions because that means that people want to learn that they are interested enough in the subject to have open minds and learn. One opens minds one person at a time.
Being transgender is a concept that hasn't hit the radar of so much of our society. Most know L & G folks and some B folks. but few have gotten to know transgender people. Even in our own community we see drag queens in the bars or at parades and take them as being actors in a role. but few of us have really taken the time to really get to know transgender people on a one on one basis. So transgender issues are not front and center for many of us.
I know there is a temptation to want people to do their own research. It shouldn't be my job to educate them, is an understandable thought. However, reality is that they are not facing the discrimination, I am, you are, we are. So it is my self-interest to do everything in my power (and your and ours) to come out, tell my story and to educate people. They don't need the education. They are just fine the way they are. They aren't felling the prejudice that I face, that you face, that we face. So if somebody has an open mind and expresses some willingness to learn, grab onto the opportunity. After you share your story, what you face, the hate, the misunderstanding, the inability to get or keep work, etc. then they will get to know you as a human being and hopefully they will have an "A Ha"