I wanted to be convinced by this. I wanted to read some new, compelling argument for pulling back on the ridicule which is part of the current movement, because it makes me uncomfortable, too.

However, it's not here. Mocking core religious beliefs? How about demonizing me because of the very nature of who I am?

Is making fun of underwear on par with creating $20 million ad campaigns which clearly portray gays as people who shouldn't be allowed around children? Is carrying a sign which is in bad taste equivalent to leading a charge to deprive a segment of our society of its human rights?

My answer is no. And when the Mormon church backs away from its disgusting positions, then I will consider being upset about some signs which aren't nice. Gays may be saying mean things, but Mormons are fighting to make gays inferior in the eyes of the government.

I will not apologize for my mean signs. Had the Mormon church not taken the actions it did to help Prop 8, I would have never made signs, and your column would not have been necessary.

Don't put this situation on me.

Since you live in Arizona, then you know of the sect of Mormons in Northern Arizona who do indeed practice polygamy. In all the years I lived in Arizona and in all the stories I have seen of this group, I have not once seen any story of the Mormon Church stepping in and putting presure on them to stop the practice.

Also, I grew up a Catholic, and they get the same amount of crap from other so-called Christian religions as the Mormons do. They have also been called a cult. But, I have long since stopped looking toward the church as a place of comfort. This was decades before I began living as Monica. The reason was how poorly they treat women, which, if I'm not mistaken, the Mormon church is not any better at.

Now that I'm trans and a lesbian, I have more reasons to want to stay away from the Catholic church. Yes, there are gay Catholics, just like there are gay Mormons and gay Republicans. Each try to justify why then believe in what they believe in. Some don't do a good job at it. For me, I'll stay away from religions or policital parties that don't have my best interest at heart, no matter what my history is with them.

Dear Serena,

Coming our (again?) as a gay Mormon is a brave thing, especially in the current environment. It is not how we act when times are good that mark the content of our character, it is in times of peril that marks the measure of a person.

We speak of love. Talk is cheap, we need to act out of love. Heaven knows we have the role models Dorothy Day, Martin Luther King, Mahatma Ghandi, and the 14th Dalai Lama come quickly to mind.

I am sorry you are in pain. I'm sorry that it is coming from your own. If we want to lay claim to the high moral ground we can't stoop to the level of our opponents.

We can't demand dignity for ourselves when we refuse to extend it to others.

My position on this is well known. Religious communities are much larger than ours, and we will be trumped easily if we are to go head-to-head with them by antagonizing them with protests at their temples.

Sadly, it appears that the gay community's knowledge doesn't extend beyond fashion, entertainment, and the arts. When it comes to concepts not in their cultural experience, they can be just as prejudiced.

And I find myself surprised as much as Serena; for, as my seething hatred of organized religion (being an atheist) may remain strong, I cannot in good conscience emulate the very actions I abhor.

The problem is no particular religion. Yes, it was Mormons in California and Arizona, but they joined many other conservative faiths, and in my part of the country, you can substitute Southern Baptist for Mormon. The difference, politically, is unimportant. The problem is religion in general and its poisonous effect on the political process. The separation of church and faith has been eroding for years, and proceeded rapidly under the Bush reign.

Probably the next activism that needs to be done would be to take steps to force churches and religions to stop their illicit and extraconstitutional political involvements - and that goes for the Mormons, Catholics, Southern Baptists, and right on down to the street-corner inner city Pentecostals. Involve your congregation in politics, whether by endorsing causes or candidates, collecting campaign contributions, or speaking of politics from the pulpit, and you should lose your tax-x status.

If we do not break the grip of conservative organized religion on the political process, we will not be able to pass and keep any laws protecting GLBT people. Yes, there are faiths that welcome us - I'm a lifelong Episcopalian who did not have to lose beliefs when discovering transgender status - but most do not. Now that the California model is present, it will be used nationally. This goes for hate crimes and ENDA, not just marriage.

Serena, I hear what you're saying, and would like to lay out my own credentials on this front.

While I was never a Mormon myself, the pioneer branch of my family had long-time connections with the Mormons. My rancher greatgrandfather knew Brigham Young and John Hickman, and did cattle business with that whole bunch of old-time Mormons. A splinter group of Mormons, the Reorganized Latter Day Saints, left Utah and settled in the Deer Lodge Valley of Montana where I grew up. Their tiny temple was one of the many churches in my home town -- they were part of the richly textured religious scenery there. A cousin of mine is married to a broad-minded Mormon lady, with whom I've had conversations about all these issues that concern us today.

My native American relatives are well aware of the Mormons' long-standing feelings of historical and genealogical ties with the First Nations, and their many marriages into the Western tribes during the pioneer days. Today many Mormons with any pioneer roots may well have tribal ancestry.

I think that the U.S. government handled the Mormon Church very roughly in the course of making them give up polygamy. There were some clear violations of constitutional rights and due process. The feds sent in troops and ran the Mormon elders and their families through something like today's Guantanamo -- long imprisonment without being charged or tried, coerced testimony by their wives, etc. It's not one of the most shining chapters of "American justice." Today the feeling that many Mormons have, of being somewhat marginalized in American society, goes back that grim experience.

I agree with you 100 percent that it's wrong to ridicule the Mormon religion...or any religion for that matter.

Though I'm a former Catholic, I would take amiss any ridicule of Catholicism. It's as tempting for some to make fun of a priest's "skirts" (cassock) as it is to make fun of the famous Mormon undergarment. It's always a no-brainer to ridicule something that you don't understand. Many Catholic practices, like honoring the saints and revering Mary, seem ridiculous to Protestants who hate and fear Catholicism. When they ridicule these practices, it reveals not only their hate but also their ignorance. And it's just as easy to ridicule some Protestants for their "bible thumping" or speaking in tongues.

But religions, like governments, can and do get enormous power, and they can abuse that power. They too can violate principles of justice and due process. Pointing out these problems is not ridicule. Intelligent historical or news commentary on church misdeeds DOES NOT constitute expressing hate.

So, as a former Catholic, I do have personal insight and sympathy into the history of why Catholics view the saints and Mary the way they do. But I have no sympathy whatever for the Catholic Church's abuses of power through the ages. I do not excuse the Inquisition, or the long history of religious wars, or the anti-Semitism, or anything else that the Roman Church did in its pursuit of power. It's important to expose these things, and keep them on record.

So -- to get back to your sentiments that are so well put -- LGBT people should not be ridiculing the Mormon Church, or any other religion that supported Prop. 8. Ridicule doesn't accomplish anything, except to show that the person who does the ridiculing is ignorant.

It's also important to point out -- as you do -- that many of these religions have members who actually support our position. We have to distinguish between official church policy and the individual humans who belong to the Church. There are many Mormons, and many Catholics too, both gay and non-gay, who have spoken out within their churches on LGBT issues, often at great cost to themselves. Over the years since I came out in 1974, I have been in touch with Catholics, not only lay people but clergy, monks and nuns who have worked to try and soften the Vatican's policy on us. When gay people unthinkingly ridicule these religions, they break the hearts of our brothers and sisters who are still working in those churches in hopes of bringing about change.

BUT today we LGBT people are well within our rights to point out any abuses of power by any religions that support Prop. 8 or any other measures that target us. The conservative leaders who run these religions already have shown that they will abuse their power in any way they can if that gets them what they want: a denial of marriage rights to us.

Wow. Thanks for this, Serena. Having never been too keen on religion in general, I often forget that intolerance for religion should not be privileged over intolerance by religion based on a haughty moral highground.

I was upset and sad on election night. The specific prohibition of my right to marriage was not what caused these feelings, but more the general indictment of my personhood. I understand the anger and the desire to blame someone, anyone. But the truth is that Prop 8, Prop 102, and Amendment 2 did not succeed because of Black Americans, Latinos, or any specific church group; their passage was due to the continued general discomfort in America with non-heteronormative expressions of sexuality and love.

These moments are opportunities for exploring our own roles, responsibilities, and positions within the system that passed these discriminatory bills. Rather than saying "this their fault," say, "what more could I have done?" Maybe there is nothing more that you could have reasonably done; but if you were able to make time for the rally on Saturday, but couldn't make time to phone bank/canvass/donate/do something before the election, take a look within before blaming others.

My own personal feelings of hurt sparked a long-overdue conversation with my brother. I had not previously outed myself to him as a gay man, due to our relative emotional distance and the anxiety of coming out to anyone, at any time. I felt that, at this time, I had an opportunity to begin the conversation. Even though I knew my brother is pretty good about gay rights, after talking to him I hope that the next time he hears an anti-gay remark, he will have a difficult time ignoring it. Hopefully, my conversation with him will spark him in conversation with others.

I feel I may have wandered in my initial purpose in this comment, but I just wanted to say thanks for helping me to pause and take a critical look at my own participation in divisive politics.

Thanks for sharing, Serena.

But I would prefer to see you direct your lectures at the leadership and compliant members of the church for which you hold such affections.

Motes in the others' eye v. beams in your own, and all that.

Don't want to see the Mormon church attacked? Guide it to stop inviting attacks.

Yes folks dont like being told its time to shutup and move on when there still in IDIOT Mode.When in IDIOT mode folks look to people and groups to hate.Some of these comments I have seen since Prop 8 passed would make the average WPWW fool proud.

Serena,

I feel that I need to begin this by stating that although I belong to no religion, I have been granted opportunities to participate in rituals or study with leaders/scholars from several religions. I was given these opportunities because I was trusted to respect them in a manner appropriate to each. I also feel the need to add that a portion of my immediate family is Mormon.

More, I want to say that I have been really impressed by how sweet I have seen you be to everyone while I have been a reader here. I keep seeing instances of you going out of your way to celebrate others. That makes it hard to disagree with you on something that appears to be affecting you very personally, but I think the situation is a little more nuanced than it may appear.

I don’t want to defend ugly behavior and there has clearly been some ugly behavior. These, however, are my immediate reactions to your essay:

1. I support your call for respectable behavior. I don’t necessarily agree with you on what is acceptable and what is unacceptable. I too have seen a picture of the sign speaking about “magic underpants.” I didn’t get it. I agree that it is difficult to interpret as anything other than empty ridicule. However when religious leaders of many faiths are trying to promote the meme that “traditional marriage” has remain unchanged for thousands of years and across the world, I think it’s completely reasonable to point out that it isn’t true. Pointing out the history of plural marriage is only one way of arguing against that. Mormons are not distinct in this respect, nor are they being singled out by this argument. You may well have only seen it directed at the LDS church the last few days, but in fact I have seen it directed at several religions. Pointing out another’s lie, or clear mistake, can come across as mean spirited. Trying to make the point in the pithy confines of a picket sign allows more room for interpretation as sarcasm. But that doesn’t make the point invalid or unimportant. The queer community is probably one of the most accepting of poly relationships. When evaluating events we need to try to be fair to both sides.

2. Your argument effectively disallows anyone from protesting any religious establishment ever for any reason for fear of risking disturbing an old lady at prayer. It is not at all uncommon for churches to be protested. Both by those from the outside and those from the inside. Right now a group of Catholic school teachers are protesting their leadership’s decision to remove their right to form a union and to use religion as a reason and defense. Are they obligated to take it quietly so as to avoid the possibility of offending someone? Are religious leaders to be free to act publicly without having to answer for those actions?

3. Inappropriate actions by individuals are not equivalent to cohesive actions by a group. When I see news broadcasts about a Mormon sect accused of abusing women or children, I do not extend that to all LDS people even if it’s proven true. I know that in any group some individuals behave badly. It takes very strict organization and discipline for there not to be some inappropriate behavior at a protest, especially as the size grows. That does not mean that everyone there should be held responsible for that individual’s actions, no matter how ugly. This is very different than a group which expressly came together to act for a nefarious purpose. Did all Mormons support the anti-gay initiatives? No, it has been publicized quite a bit that some publicly opposed them. There are probably more who were on the fence. And I am willing to believe those that say they acted only out of loyalty to the church. But the LDS (other religious groups as well but notably the Mormons) acted in a goal driven cohesive manner to attack others. To impose their beliefs upon others. That is different in kind than some individuals making snide remarks.

4. Extending your logic would make it virtually impossible to ever criticize any religious organization. And that is what they want. They want to be the unquestionable arbiters of God’s will as they force others to conform.

5. Protests are supposed to be upsetting.

6. The most effective strategy is a variety of communication styles. Yes, some religious people going to be turned off by the protests. Others will find them troubling enough to start thinking about the issues deeper than they have before. Some of those unreachable through protests will/should be reached through other types of activism For instance, outreach from gay church members.

7. The protests are not just aimed at those inside the institutions protested. They are also aimed at people outside of that religion People who are effectively on the line, but have been swayed by public stances of religious leaders. And they are also aimed at energizing the LGBT community.

8. We cannot continue to cede the religious and moral ground to those who abuse it. They should be confronted through a variety of methods, but public protests are a valuable and time-tested tool.

9. We are going to have to have to point out that not all religious people agree with the interpretations of various scriptures being bandied about by conservatives. We are also going to have to be brave enough to point out the inconsistencies in conservative religious leaders own arguments. And yes, some people are going to be offended.

I personally have problems supporting those actions which target individuals for their voting or donation records. On either side. And there have been reports of it going in both directions. I understand not wanting to hand your money over to someone who may well use it against you, but I personally am reluctant to participate. I don’t want to see any more group or personal enmity built up than has to be. But no one would feel justified to demand that I feel calm about being mugged. No one would argue that if the police were abusing citizens we shouldn’t say anything because it might upset them. When religious institutions enter the public sphere they are subject to the same criticisms as any other group. In fact, it could be argued that when they lie and cheat and act hypocritically, they deserve less respect than others.

The LDS church has endured abuse at the hands of the US public and government. But when LDS leaders stand up and say that the Prop 8 protests are just another instance of that abuse, I feel perfectly justified in calling them hypocrites. Some of them undoubtedly believe it. Members of abused groups can develop bunker mentalities. But the reasoning is unsound, the position is false and the objective is deceptive. Failing to publicly denounce that kind of rhetoric is virtually a silent assent.

We all are, or should be, mature enough to know that it is not about being opposed to any religion. But when groups not only refuse to listen to reason, but are prepared to lie and abuse the system to achieve their own ends, effective means to get them to stop and think critically about their actions must be found.

I believe the Mormon "church" and its beliefs deserve ridicule. I believe Bill Maher's saying that "Mormonism is like Scientology but without the celebrities". I have looked at some mormon beliefs - Jesus being Lucifer/Satan's brother, the afterlife on other planets, etc, and I find them to be even more preposterous than basic fundie christian beliefs. I also find the idea that people believe literally in Adam and Eve and a talking snake as well as a man who lived to be 900 years old building an ark that held every species of plant, animal and insect to be totally absurd.
Many gay and non-gay people don't get how anyone in their right mind could believe this crap as literal history. Why shouldn't I express how I feel about religions and the destruction they have wrought? Because it might hurt some gay mormons or christian's feelings?

That is like telling me I have to make nice to a gay Republican. No thanks. My politics go beyond my sexual orientation. It's not just about love - it's about equality and justice for all - concepts that most organized religions have opposed over the centuries.

The Mormon church changed it's doctrine on polygamy only to gain statehood for Utah. It was political expediency - not a "divine revelation". The Mormon church changed it's doctrine and "scriptures" on darker skinned people in 1978 - not through "divine revelation to their prophet" but for political expediency - racial discrimination was no longer p.c. in 1978 and it hampered growing the "church".
I am weary of Mormons that either don't know the history of their church (and its founders) or believe that it is only anti-mormon rhetoric used by people to attack them.
The mormons were also extremely involved in derailing the Equal Rights Amendment a couple decades ago - so they are fair game in every sense. They have a lot to answer for.

It may take some people awhile to break from their childhood church but I don't get why - others of us started questioning it when we were barely teenagers. If you no longer believe in the absurd doctrines, why would you care if it is ridiculed? I don't spend a lot of time running around making fun of Mormon or Christian beliefs, and my sign at the rallies did not; however, I have no problem with people expressing an opinion that does.

I believe the Mormon church is a threat (just like other fundamentalists) to the separation of church and state. You don't fight that by being nice.