Matt Comer

Rick 'Bearing False Witness' Warren: What he really said on gays, pedophilia, incest

Filed By Matt Comer | December 23, 2008 11:00 AM | comments

Filed in: Fundie Watch, Marriage Equality, Politics
Tags: Obama and Rick Warren, Rick Warren against gay marriage, Rick Warren hates gays, Rick Warren supports Prop 8, saddleback church

Rick Warren, pastor of Saddleback Church, gave a message to his congregants recently. He addressed the controversy over the invite he received to lead the inaugural invocation.

Addressing his repeated comparisons of gay relationships with incest and pedophilia, Warren said (quick, paraphrased transcript):

...what do you really believe about gay marriage? Let me just lay it out for you, my members. My views have not changed in 30 years. I've been accused of equating gay partnerships with incest and pedophilia. I believe no such thing. You've never heard me in 30 years talk like that.

I've in no way ever taught that homosexuality is the same as a forced relationship between an adult and child or between siblings. I've never taught that in 30 years. I understand why people think that because of a recent BeliefNet interview. In that interview I named several other relationships such as living together, a man with multiple wives, a brother and a sister relationship, adults with children or common-law relationships. I don't think any of them should be called marriage. There should only be one definition: one man, one woman.

Now, for the facts. This is what Warren really said:

BELIEFNET: What about partnership benefits in terms of insurance or hospital visitation?

WARREN: You know, not a problem with me.

[Clarification from Pastor Warren 12/15: I favor anyone being able to make anyone else the beneficiary of their health or life insurance coverage. If I am willing to pay for it, I should be able to put a friend, partner, relative, or stranger on my coverage. No one should be turned away from seeing a friend in the hospital. But visiting rights are a non-issue in California! Since 1999, California has had a domestic partnership law that grants gay couples visiting rights and all the other rights. Prop 8 had no -zero -effect on those rights.]

The issue to me, I'm not opposed to that as much as I'm opposed to redefinition of a 5,000 year definition of marriage. I'm opposed to having a brother and sister being together and calling that marriage. I'm opposed to an older guy marrying a child and calling that marriage. I'm opposed to one guy having multiple wives and calling that marriage.

BELIEFNET: Do you think those are equivalent to gays getting married?

[WARREN:] Oh, I do. For 5,000 years, marriage has been defined by every single culture and every single religion - this is not a Christian issue. Buddhist, Muslims, Jews - historically, marriage is a man and a woman.

Does Pastor Rick Warren suddenly think the Ninth Commandment doesn't apply to him. Bearing false witness is bad thing, Pharisee -- ooops.... I mean, Pastor.

In the same message to his congregation, Warren said (quick, paraphrased transcript):

I believe God gives us free choice... I believe I must give everyone else that same freedom of choice. I'm opposed to forcing people to act the way I believe God wants me to act.

Oh, really? If that's so, you should have no problem with civil unions or gay marriage. You know, since you don't want to force other people to believe the same thing you do or anything. Or, do you just get to set your own rules?

Facts:

  1. Warren supported Prop. 8. -- Forces gay people to not marry, i.e. act the way Warren thinks they should act.
  2. Warren does not support civil unions ("No American should ever be discriminated against because of their beliefs. Period. But a civil union is not a civil right. Nowhere in the constitution can you find the "right" to claim that any loving relationship identical to marriage." src) -- Warren to gays, "Act they way I believe you should."
  3. Warren told NBC's Anne Curry he believes gay people should "control their natural impulses" and refrain from having committed, monogamous relationships. After, all, he controls his natural impulse to have sex with every beautiful woman he sees, he said.

At the end of his message to his congregation, Warren sounds nice. He talks about love and kindness, and I have no doubt he might be inclined to actually live out that love and kindness among gay people. BUT, that doesn't change the fact that he is a liar. What makes it worse is that he's actually contemplated and pre-meditated his lies. All in the name of God.

Part of that whole "Do not take my name in vain" thing applies to people who use God's name to further their own agendas. Using God's name to lie, or invoking his name during your sins, is just as immoral as lying. It's a shame America's most well-known preachers can never live by the own laws they try to impose on everyone else. Wait... I thought that's what Jesus was fighting against? Oh well. Pharisee Rick will never see that.


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I did really, really like that Ann Curry interview. She had that expression on her face when he answered her questions about Teh Gayz that he was completely nuts.

His damage control is kinda funny at this point. We're getting to him.

Great breakdown, Matt. And I agree with Alex, we obviously are hitting a chord with him.

The Judgment of Caiaphas

The high priest declared that he wanted to see the prisoner alone in his chambers before judgment was given. The man was brought in bound hand and foot and pushed to his knees. Caiaphas held up his hand and they desisted. Glancing into the eyes of the guards he said, “Leave us,” and they departed closing the door behind them.

He looked down at the bruised and bleeding man at his feet with contempt. “You know you are going to die, don't you?”

The man swallowed and said, “Yes... as we all will.. Only mine will be a martyr's death. Are you prepared for the consequences of that?”

The high priest stood for a moment staring at the floor as if weighing his words. He slowly raised his gaze to the eyes of the prisoner. “You do not yet understand, do you?

“This whole controversy you have raised is bigger than me and any consequences I will have to suffer. I know that history will look back on me as an evil monster for pronouncing your death. So be it. I am ready to sacrifice my life and my reputation to stop you. And not just mine but that of the entire Sanhedrin.

“Don't you understand, prophet?” he spat out with scorn. “Don't you understand how dangerous your teachings are? You would have us accept everyone just as they are! How can we motivate people to become holy by doing that? Ridiculous! You would have accepting foreigners of other races, divorced people, unwed mothers, women who've had abortions, homosexuals living together, and all that without making them repent first! Are you crazy?!” His face was glowing with anger.

“And you have made it sound like we are the ones who need repentance, you lunatic troublemaker. You make it sound like we are not being 'compassionate.' Sure, there are conservatives who are not compassionate, but we not among them. Don't you realize that letting sinners suffer the consequences of their transgressions until they repent is being compassionate? We have to call sin 'sin' or people will never repent! That means we have to let unwed mothers suffer in their poverty, we have to stand by while gays die of AIDS, we have to burn down abortion clinics, so sinners will see the error of their ways.

“Your teaching would mean the end of the world for us. So we have to put a stop to it right now.” He held up a had to forestall the man's answer. “Yes, yes, I know you have followers who will carry on in your place, but that is why we have to bring you to an end this way, with this death on a cross.

“You see, we can't defeat your teaching on it's own terms. There is something about 'love your enemies' that we can't fight against. So what we are doing is co-opting you. You will be honored as 'god,' and we will adopt a 'safe' form of your teachings. And when I say 'we' I don't mean Judaism as such. That will be the branch of religion that will fight against you so that the worldwide adoption of 'Christianity' will be ensured.

“Just think! You will be a god, and your followers will hate and kill and even fight wars in your name. Christianity will even break apart into sects so they can fight each other. All so that people will feel their sins and repent and become hypocrites like us.” Caiaphas did not miss the startled look on the man's face.

“You are surprised that I take the name of 'hypocrite' so readily? You poor deluded man! Hypocrisy is part of life! Once you have repented you have to keep on repenting to cover the guilt you have for the secret sins you keep on committing--even me, though I'll not tell you what they are on the off chance you might tell someone in the few hours you have before your death, and, however unlikely, they actually believed you.

“I'll clue you in on something, the fear of discovery keeps many an evangelist going. We are all the most vocal about condemning the sins we feel most guilty about in ourselves. If I want to get someone to preach against homosexuality, I always look for a pastor with a secret boyfriend. And if they are accidentally discovered, it just provides a cathartic lesson for the faithful. They get to watch the miscreant repent and be forgiven, feel good about forgiving him, and feel thankful that it's not them up there repenting for their secret sins.. And they can drive home with their plastic Jesus on the dashboard or their WWJD bumper sticker on the back of their car and pat themselves on the back for being good Christians.

“Hypocrisy? Hypocrisy is the life blood of our religion. Don't think that I'm hurt when you call me a hypocrite. After all, that will allow us to adopt your name and your reputation without the bother of actually doing any of the things you've been teaching.

“Do you now see the magnitude of your failure? Your name will be used to perpetuate the system you fought so hard to overthrow,” Caiaphas smirked. “And what are you getting out of it? Not a damn thing in this life! And it's not like you weren't offered. You could have been given all the kingdoms of the Earth, but you wanted to worship God alone. Well, the whole Earth is going to bow down to you anyway, or at least the part of it that isn't using your name as a swear word. It's just that you won't be around to appreciate it.

“Now go to die, Jesus of Nazareth. Our conversation here will not be known to anyone. The official record will say that I asked you if you really are the Christ, and that you answered, 'you have said so.' This is nothing personal against you, you understand. All the same I won't miss having to deal with you.”

The high priest straightened up and called for the guards.

I've lost the link and I'm searching for it desperately now. There's more to the Ann Curry interview than was aired on TV. In the unaired section, Warren expresses support for civil unions, full LGBT civil rights, and a fully inclusive hate crimes law. Dammit, I saw it last night and was going to blog it. Now I have to find it again!