I congratulate the folks running this blog to have such an open discussion on racism which our "leaders" in gay rights movement usually try to avoid as it "threatens" their positions of power and wealth.

All the views in this commentary from the attempts of HRC to define gay rights movement as "civil rights" struggles of blacks to racism in gay establishments are the hard facts of life for non-white LGBT people.

I don't think that all whites are racist, however, it is the institutionalized racism that plagues gay organizations. The LGBT rights movement have gone so far with those supremacist attitudes that they have appointed "whites" with a very narrow understanding of the issues to lead groups working on international and immigration rights where "white leaders" using their own white privilged life experiences interpret the needs and rights of "non-whites."

This is a good start of at least acknowledging the issues of racism within the movement and obviously we have a long way to go before accomplishing any real changes. If our influential leaders could put the interests of the broader community above their own self-interests they would be kindly looked upon by history as we all know that in next two decades the demographics of the US would dramatically change and the LGBT rights movement would fall behind in adopting to those realities and would suffer losses -- Prop 8 is a wake up call.

Goodness, that was a lot to digest. I agree w/ some of the statements made by author but not all. I just watched Milk and of course I noticed that people of color nor women were strongly represented in the biopic. Many movements have usurped the language & activities of the civil rights movement. I've always viewed the usage of ideologies from black civil rights movements as an example of how effective the movement's tactics were at generating change. And yes, the gay movement has been primarily represented by white gay males. There is also the question of sexism in the gay movement. Women were not initially included in the movement, as were not blacks. White gay males were able to maneuver throughout the system to generate social & political change because of their privileged status as white men. I remember controversial book, the Isis Papers, but have not read it in many years. Overall, an enlightening and thought provoking commentary on the state of black/white gay relations. Imagine how powerful a social movement could/would be if we were able to somehow embrace the differences among us and join forces. We can all look to Washington to see what happens when American people, gay, straight, black, white, Hispanic, middle eastern, Asian, Native American, young & old, liberal, democrat & republican all come together to support a common cause. Together, we can change our country and impact the world in a positive way.

"As long as the ties that bind us together,are stronger than those that tear us apart, all will be well."

Mojustice

I am sorry, for all the good that this article does, Frances Cress Welsing's views on homosexuality are so morally repugnant and damaging that it is difficult for me to focus on all of the other brilliant points regarding white gays embracing Shirley Q. Liquor, et al. Overall (when I read it 20 or so years ago), in spite of it's incisive points, it was a tract of black supremacy as opposed to white supremacy; it was like every other nationalism (i.e. Nazism) that I have every read about, only in blackface.

Also, I am not sure if I would give the "liberal media" as much credit for being pro-gay and anti-black, occasionally exactly the opposite can occur.

Yes, these are sensitive topics that must be discussed, but the discussion needs to take place both ways.

I watch CNBC the financial channel all day every day. Keith Boykin is a favorite talking head of Larry Kudlow's, of the Kudlow show. He usually represents Obama's financial plans. Boykin never come out as a gay man or for gay marriage, or two black men getting married. Why not ? Is he afraid of giving conservative jackass Kudlow a heart attack ? Boykin is good at criticizing the media, but he IS the media.
Shirley Q Liquor is an old story and that old horse has been beaten to death on all the blogs. Is she still around in Texas ?
The second in command of the NGLTF is an African American woman executive, GLAAD has an influential African American executive on it's board, HRC has a whole panel of African American "people of faith" on it's committee, ect. ect., so I don't understand where the argument is that LGBT orgs don't hire African American LGBT's. They sure do alot more than President Obama's administration.

Kevin

Greetings! First, I want to thank you, "Coloredqueen," and "Mojustice" for taking the time to weigh in with such thoughtful, substantive comments. Bravo.

Kevin, let me state that my fervent desire to
open up a bold, honest and meaningful conversation about racism--particularly within the GLBTI Community--was the major reason why I crafted this series. Thank you and the others for helping me realize that. I believe it's a conversation that's long overdue.

About Dr. Welsing: I, too, wholeheartedly agree with you that her statements about homosexuality are indeed "morally repugnant" and potentially damaging.

However, her statements on the origins/roots of racism, and its appalling, devastating and chronic affect and impact on people of color--particularly Blacks--have tremendous merit. And certainly shouldn't be overlooked. Or discounted.

I sincerely believe that we can reject some statements/ideas/beliefs a particular person espouses; however though, we do have the capacity to find merit in other statements that same person makes. We have to practice being objective, and being open-minded.

I don't expect each reader to agree with everything I present here. But, look what's now happenin'--a worthy dialgoue; an engaging, enlightening conversation.

So now, let's come together as a "Collective Community"--GLBTIs of all races and ethnicities--and "handle our bizness."

As a gay man of color who is also a sociologist, I tend to have more of a Marxist view of how racism came about. This whole idea of "envy" and fear of losing one's gene pools smacks of the early 20th century eugenicists. For my money, I think the Smedley's Race in North America and the ideas discussed on the PBS documentary "Race: The Power of an Illusion" resonate with me. But the problem you discuss is real, wherever we think it came from...

A great author who discusses the ramifications of the slave system on African Americans is Dr. Joy Leary. She wrote "Post_traumatic Slave Syndrome"--EXCELLENT book that I highly recommend.

Chris

Thanks much for your input, and for sharing those resources--notably Dr. Leary--with us!

This gives me the opportunity to, on BILERICO, show my appreciation to Mr. Russell Olivera, Executive Director/Founder/Editor-In-Chief, of QBLISS for allowing me to create and run this series.

You can read the series in its entirety at
www.qbliss.net. Also, please feel free to visit my personal website: www.wyattobrianevans.net.

Anthony

I'm loving this! "The Conversation" is continuing. Thanks so much for your thoughtful, insightful comments.

Now, allow me to respond to some of your points:

1. Too much of what you term the "mainstream gay" community has embraced, and continues to embrace, this despicable caricature. Shirley Q continues to be popular.

2. About "Noah"--there was a lot of "behind the scenes drama". I believe your gut is correct. Actually, I'm privy to what happened; however, I've promised the source who has the direct "lowdown" on what happened that I'd keep my lips "zipped."

3. On Gay Rights Organizations: In the past few years, it appears that these organizations have made a stronger, more concerted effort at being inclusive. However, much more work needs to be done. And, ALL sides of the "racial aisle" (I'm talkin' all races, ethnicities in the GLBTI Community) need to continue to reach out more--and more effectively--to each other.

4. Lastly, Dr. Welsing: she is NOT crazy. Far from it. She's brilliant. I met her face to face at a seminar a little more than 20 years ago. As I stated to Kevin (see earlier post), even though we may not agree with some statements/beliefs/views of a particular individual, we cannot automatically dismiss other statements which that particular individual espouses because they very well may have merit and value.

Being objective and keeping an open mind are some of the ways we can further an open and honest dialogue--and travel the road to solving the problem.

Mercedes

Thanks so much for sharing your personal and heartfelt story. I appreciate that.

In order to help stamp out racism, we have to first understand it. Then analyze it. And that leads to the creation of an open and honest dialgoue, which, therefore, will put us on the path to reach our end result.

Keep reading!

Maybe some white LGBT's can be intimidated by blacks accusing us of racism if that is what your aim is in this blog. However, I don't feel any hatred towards our black brothers and sisters, haven't lynched you, haven't tarred and feathered you, haven't locked you up, we have just been kind to you. Maybe we don't mingle in gay bars but neither do you. We have a common denominator of being queer and sexual lovers. I really feel your anger is misplaced and aimed towards us white LGBT[s) and away from the enemy, bigoted heterosexual white bigots in Texas and Washington D.C.
If your aim is to intimidate through white guilt for black gay power, I don't think it will work with the queer community.

This is from President Obama's book, Audacity of Hope regarding a bigot that said the N word in front of his father, Barry.
In a bar in Waikiki, Barry was having a drink with his father-in-law when a large white redneck loudly announced that he didn’t see why he should have to drink with a "n****r."

Barry walked across the bar, looked the redneck in the eye, and quietly lectured him on the folly of bigotry.

"This fella felt so bad when Barry was finished," recalled Gramps Stanley Dunham, "that he reached into his pocket and gave Barry a hundred dollars. Paid for everyone’s drinks on the spot. And Barry’s rent for the rest of the month."

It was a frequently told story that would inspire Barack when he was growing up – a fable telling how it was possible to heal even the ugliest of America’s racial scars.

On one hand Charles, I agree with you that the tone, sometimes, of black LGBT's in a dialogue such as this tends to be rather preachy and accusatory in tone as opposed to a dialogue. Starting this essay with even those quotes by Welsing, for example, is a firebomb.

But I would like to hear a description from you as to how kind "you" have been to "us." We can go back as recently as the blow up after Proposition 8 that took place in the blogosphere. Or the lack of outreach to our ethnic (black and Latino) communities in California, as if you either took the vote for granted or gave it up for loss (but you weren't respectful enough to think that you had to "win" the minority vote) Or the Shirley Q. Liquor story. Or the segregation in gay bars in San Francisco. Or the dearth of black LGBTs in high profile gay civil rights organizationns (until recently). And let's not go to the Mandingo assumptions that white gay men make of black gay (and occasionally "straight") men in the bar scene. How about in Chicago, when some gay black teens on Halsted Street were seen as a threat to the neighborhood. Those are examples that fly off the top of my head. I trust that others could provide examples.

None of that sounds very kind to me.

Frankly, I think that it has less to do with "white supremacy," per se, and more to do with the fact that "being gay" is the only location where a gay white man experiences discrimination, therefore the assumption that "being gay" is the default discrimination experience for everyone that identifies as LGBT.

To be frank, that would be true for me. I've gone to Black Gay Prides, for example, and have been accused by people of being "too white." I don't go to them anymore, but that is a personal decision. I understand why they should exist. And so should you.

And just to balance it out:

1) We can't very well throw Shriley Q. Liquor in white LGBTs face and not look at our own tepid response to the highly offensive stereotypes of black women and black gay men (which affects all LGBTs) by Tyler Perry simply because he's "making coin" (far more than Knipp) and he's black.

2. At least white LGBT's did march on the religious institutions that they felt oppressed them: the Mormon Church, Saddleback, the Catholic Church, etc. We neither condemned nor marched on conservative black churches that spout the exact same homophobic garbage in black communities. Hell, many of us are still in those churches, for reasons that I DO understand.

Personally, I was glad to see white LGBT's march on churches, even though there was a backlash for that.

3. There would have been nothing wrong with both condemning Isiah Washington and criticizing the over-reaction to him. Again, our primary response: we leapt to his defense.

After all, if I remember correctly, one of the reasons David Geffen was dragged out of the closet kicking and screaming was because they protested Andrew Dice Clay more or less the same way, if not even more vehemently.

Again, I'm loving this! I want to thank everyone for their comments. We're creating a heartfelt dialgoue on racism, particularly within the GLBTI community.

We all have to be able to practice objectivity to find the necessary solutions to complicated problems. True, Dr. Welsig is homophobic. But her theories on race have merit and value. When you really analyze them in an objective manner, they make a lot of sense.

To Charles--if you're really reading and digesting this series, you'll know what my "aim" is.

And, I don't believe there's anything wrong with the "tone" of this series. I state very early on that I don't believe that all whites are racist.

And if it takes a "firebomb" to open up that honest and bold dialgoue and conversation on the subject--since there's been so much "verbal constipation" which continues to shut down this very discussion--so be it. That's a good thing!

To narrow the racial divide and to come together as a Collective Community, isn't it worth it to seriously consider ideas, concepts and beliefs that we might not normally consider? Isn't that part of President Obama's philosophy?

Wyatt, considering my reaction to Dr. Welsing, I can well imagine what the white gay reaction to Dr. Welsing would be; then you have the merry-go-round bitchfest all over again.

In one sense, introducing Welsing isn't all bad: one thing that a white LGBT wouldn't understand is that a black LGBT is often hit witha race appeals to justify homophobia. The whole gay=white thing. While a poster on another blamed that phenomenon on the dearth of exposure in mainstream LGBT organizations (and there is some truth to that), that particular meme predates Stonewall. It's been out there for a long time. And a white LGBT may not understand that such appeal exists at all or why it exists. They may not understand how powerful that appeal is or how to cut through it.

In that sense, introducing Welsing may not be a bad thing.

One more thing. One effect of racism (generally, not in the gay community) is that there are statements that we hear in black communities that we don't talk about outside of those circles. While I understand why AAs do that, we can't very well ask for help from the GLBT community at large if we remain silent about some of those things as well.

Kevin

Your valid points are well-taken.

Please keep reading the series because as you'll soon see, I address all sides of this complicated issue.

One more thing, then I have to work. LOL.

Let's be sensitive to the fact the neither black communities nor gay communities are monolithic; the A-List gays vs. the D-List gays would be one example, accounting for regional differences.

Too often discussions like this break into a neat and lazy binary of gay-black. That's problematic.

Charles, you are way kinder to Jasmyne Cannick than I am.

I am not doubting your individual efforts commitment to bridge the divide.

And I am unaware of the accusation that you describe about the Tuskeegee experiment.

And please read my note below vis-a-vis viewing both communities as monoliths.

My read on this from a mainstream gay community perspective (which may be simplistic and flat out wrong) is that class divisions in gay communities are simmering up, especially in the aftermath of the Prop 8 debacle. Class differences are also appearing in black communities as well (middle- class blacks and blacks in positions of political power are and have speaking on behalf of gays for years). I think that may be my other minor objection to the article, class is as much of a "firebomb" in this debate as ethnicity.

I thought this was a good effort, but there are some things that raised concerns.

First, I didn't know about Dr. Welsing before reading this article and the responses, but her theory of the origin of racism doesn't seem accurate. Racism, as I remember from anthropology and history classes, started as an ideological justification for slavery and colonialism, often bolstered by "scientific racism." Obviously, anxieties about a future in which whites are the minority does a lot to fuel the racism we see today, but I think that's more superficial, and white supremacism is more about keeping white people in a position of power and privilege than it is about fears of population decline.

Second, I'm willing to give the author the benefit of the doubt because he was using his own expertise as a black man, but there seems to be this prevailing notion that racism is all white-on-black. Though it had some nice stock photography photos of a black guy, a Latino guy, a white guy and an Asian guy, it had virtually no discussion of racism beyond the white-black dichotomy. I'm Caucasian, but was raised by a Native American step-father, and he always had a sense of people who aren't black or white being sort of ignored in the dialog on racial and ethnic issues.

It wouldn't be my place, and I'm not necessarily saying the author should try and tackle this, but I would like to see something about racism against Asians in the gay community, which I've long thought was taken for granted and accepted even more than racism against blacks (maybe I'm wrong, but that's my perception). I remember once when a friend took me to a bar in San Francisco that was frequented by a lot of Asian guys, and during a show where they brought a guy on stage and asked him if he was a top or bottom, he replied that he was a top; the guy sitting next to me said something like "If he had said he was a bottom, he'd have guys all over him."

On a related note, something about racial fetishization would be nice to see as well. This is something that comes from all angles, whether it's "rice queens" (white guys with a strong preference for Asian guys), "sticky rice" (Asian guys who exclusively date Asian guys) or the "Sorry, not into [insert race here] guys" line commonly seen in personal ads. It's one thing to be attracted to certain features that might be common in a particular race or ethnicity, but sticking exclusively to one race and/or rejecting another wholesale is where that crosses the line into racism, I think.

Larry

Thanks for the insightful comments.

Now Larry, consider this: if racism and white supremacy are not the same, at the very least they are both inextricably linked. And historically, they both have been all about keeping a certain race of people cemented in positions of power and privilege.

And allow me to play "devil's advocate"--
various quarters have argued the following: "how can a certain group really be racist if that group really has no power--particularly institutionally?"

Keep in mind that this is a series--which means that it is unfolding. Do keep reading and have patience. The points you make, and the issues you bring up will be explored and addressed. Trust me, it's worth the wait.

And, I wish to thank Mr. Bill Perdue for stating yesterday that this series is an "important" conversation which needs to continue. Comments such as those make the endeavor all worthwhile.

A. J.

Thanks for your input. Varying points of view are important.

I'm not going to do a "back and forth" with you-- which would be counterproductive--but I must address a few things.

Volumes of reputable stats, studies, etc., attest to the fact that people of color--particularly African-Americans--continue to face chronic, crippling institutional racism. Therefore, my "argument" as you term it, is quite valid--and is not "160 years out of date."

As I told Larry--be patient. This is a series, which means it is unfolding. And, I respectfully ask you to allow yourself to breathe, keep an open mind, don't have preconceived notions--and by all means, try not be defensive.

And A.J., please GOOGLE Dr. Melissa Harris-Lacewell, a contributor to CNN. She's written an eye-opening, on-the-mark commentary on race which will give you more of the correct understanding about how institutional racism continues to afflict people of color.

Wyatt,

You have done an excellent job here in leading this discussion and at least making people pause and think. The LGBT community had put a lid on racism for too long and it just got exploded after prop 8. So, it is an excellent start.

I am just curious if you have been invited to national and state gay organizations to lead such discussions with their board, staff and membership. Since most gay orgs are so white they could really use some help with their thought process and that would help the LGBT movement as a whole. You know issues of institutionalized racism in gay community, lack of LGBT persons of color (all races including blacks) in leading roles in gay establishments, and media etc. All those defenses that we can't find black people, latin people, asian people to be involved are sort of pretty lame excuses and I am quite sure after prop 8 there would be a serious "rush" for diversification with some tokens of color but beyond those gestures I think it would really help LGBT movement if folks like you could help open the minds of our "leaders."

Otherwise, remember those Republican Conventions on TV with sea of endless white faces and some people of color positioned for cameras and that is one thing which really helped Obama and mainstream media ran with..all those white men in that party who just could not connect. Is that what is happening to gay rights movement?? no new faces, lack of fresh ideas and energies to organize people of all colors at grassroots level, power in the hands of few whites at the top, killing of healthy debates with disagreements, dismissing our diversity...list goes on..and then we turn around and start bashing others for our losses..

A.J.

To a large degree, you are off the mark. You need to re-read my last post to you. And do continue reading the series.

And to you, "ColoredQueen"--Wow. We are of the same mindset!

As far as working with national gay organizations are concerned, my manager and I are developing and working on several projects regarding this issue. For me, this issue goes beyond what I'm doing for BILERICO and QBLISS.

In rhe coming months, I'll let everyone know more. Please routinely visit my website,
www.wyattobrianevans.net and join my email list for updates, etc. That way, you'll be the first to know.

"ColoredQueen," thanks much for your interest and support!

"Colored Queer"

My bad--I've been referring to you as
"Colored Queen." My apologes.

Everyone,

I am a white gentleman and I can say is this is a superb series on racism, a much needed topic of discussion. We ALL need to think about this and be open and sincere on the discussion on racism. Racism has always been around and it is enlightening to read Mr. Evans well-written article and take on it.

Yes, this may be a little lengthy for some people, I totally disagree with that. There can never be enough written, thought or discussed about the issue of Racism. Mr. Evans may have had some thoughts or made some comments that does not suit everyone, but isn't that the Freedom of Speech and Press, tht this great country has.

Mr. Evans is a gifted writer and it is refreshing to have the needed discussion and message heard. I appreciate Mr. Evans for "hitting the nail on the head." I hope Mr. Evans explores this subject more as well as many numerous controversial subjects.

I would like to thank The Bilerico Project for allowing Mr. Evans to share this series and I hope we see more of this writer. Bilerico, I thoroughly enjoy your site, daily.

thanks again, Norm

Yeah, A.J., the anti-Latino and the anti-gay slurs that were thrown at Jose S. when he was killed really bothered me, as I was a witness to something similar over 20 years ago. My feeling is we can go up and down who has what type of power in this society. One thing is for sure; the murderer had "the power" to beat the man to death with a baseball bat.

I have also felt that way about people like Dr. Welsing and other black nationalists who say )more or less) that homosexuality is a white thing. Then it would seem to me that racism is a component of homophobia for some blacks (I've heard and read this many times). As far as power is concerned, there is little that could be done to affect a white man within the structures of domination, but the power that can be exercised against a gay or lesbian of color can be devastating.

Why are black people such shit starters? Wyatt Evans, you, are crazy so are every person you referenced.

Black Gay Pride events were organized so they could be black ONLY not because of racism. Blacks always participated in Gay Pride events.

Blacks do not come out in the same numbers as whites because they have this bigoted notion that being gay is white. Lack of media representation is because of lack of openness. The only out black gay people in mainstream media are RuPaul, Wanda Sykes and Wilson Cruz (half black). This lack of representation will continue until black gay people hold those anti-gay bigots in their community accountable.

It's an insult to compare gay people's struggle with that of blacks. Gay people have faced oppression all over the globe for thousands of years. Blacks have not. Being gay is punishable by death in some countries (mostly in Africa and Southwest Asia) and even more in the past including the United States. That never happened to blacks. Gay people's very existance have been questioned. Not so with blacks. I don't want gay people's PEACEFUL struggle for EQUALITY compared with black people's struggle.

Wyatt, deflect, that's all you know how to do. Why do I have to provide evidence? Your whole column was anecdotal, no evidence what so ever.