Actually i find your snark to label them as "gay" more ludicrous than you seem to find their self-identification. I see two people being upfront in what they are asking for- sex involving more than one gender. That is hardly being in the closet, no matter what they choose to identify as. That they identify as "straight" says to me that they do not relate to "gay" culture and therefore do not see themselves as "gay". Sounds like they are pretty in touch with what they want and are not afraid to ask for it. This is a closet? Plenty of people are attracted to and have sex with more than one gender... without wearing a "gay" label. For anybody to say "you are gay and just confused" is every bit as offensive and harmful as the groups that are trying to convince people that they are "really straight, just confused".

The only denial i see here is that of existence outside a nice little binary world.

I agree with mykill here. Even if we're going to start identifying them without regard to self-identification, they are obviously not gay, but would be bi. They do seem to share an attraction, but an attraction to one person of one gender does not negate attraction to people of another gender. i.e. being a kinsey 1 is a far cry from "omg so gay!"

Of course, all that is just a thought experiement, as they identify themselves as straight and there's no reason to think they are being untruthful with themselves or others. Liking anal penetration and not being afraid of physical contact with another man in a threeway is not inherently gay. In fact, it's how I'd expect more straight people to act as homophobia lessens. Many have pointed out that anti-homophobia and sex-positiveness that the queer community engages in is our gift to the straight world. This appears to me as proof that our gift is being appreciated.

I agree with Mykill and Tobi too. Fact of the matter is, most men like anal stimulation--its got a biological basis. I know several straight guys that discovered--after they dealt with their own discomfort and preconceived notions--that they LOVE anal play, especially if delivered from a girl they love. One of my best friends in the world is a straight guy who took some time getting used to me being gay. One day (over tacos no less) he breaks into confession about this bisexual girl we both know who he had been seeing.

"I've always loved 'tossing the salad,' [oh straight boys are so cute when they're trying to be polite, aren't they?] but I never let any girls do that to me. The other day ***** talked me into it, and it was AWESOME! I loved it. I've been asking for it every day since!"

Awww. Another straight boy realizes that sex can be more than quick lackluster humping in the missionary position!

"That they identify as "straight" says to me that they do not relate to "gay" culture and therefore do not see themselves as "gay"."

This is a pretty interesting sentence, that brings up all kinds of questions. I didn't realize that if you don't do whatever it is that constitutes the "gay culture" you aren't gay. Even if you only have sex with your same sex? Should I then say I'm straight, even though I only have sex with other guys? I'm genuinely curious about this. What do other people think? I hadn't thought about this before. Should we develop a new word for guys who sleep with only other guys but don't identify with anything "gay"? I know I sound a bit snarky, but I'm really throwing this out because it caused me to think differently.

Here is another sentence that makes me think.

"Plenty of people are attracted to and have sex with more than one gender... without wearing a "gay" label."

First question. What's wrong with having a gay label? I guess this is the same as in the sentence above. Having someone think you are gay means more than just who you sleep with, but how you live all other aspects of your life?

Why do they have to identify as gay? I have a female friend who is straight and we talk about everything. In fact she told me that her boyfriend figured out that he enjoyed a little finger action when receiving a blow job. He eventually asked her to use her dildo on him.

Does that make him gay that he wants a little anal action from a woman? Does it make him bi because he likes some anal fun? I don't think either label is correct because he has no desire to have a man do that to him. It's a matter of dominance and submission between him and my friend.

Something along the same line could be said about these two guys.

Although I am curious how do two straight guys discover that they both enjoy using toys like that? Of course being a Craigslist advert there's a lot we don't know. It's always possible they are a bi couple and just want to invite a woman in for the occasional 3-way.

Should we develop a new word for guys who sleep with only other guys but don't identify with anything "gay"?

We actually already do: MSM or Men who have Sex with Men. Although, should you start identifying with it? Probably not. At least not unless you want to.

There's nothing wrong with having a gay label, but it's not helpful forcing it on people who don't fit it any more than trying to force "straight" onto folks who don't fit that is. Especially when you're talking about people who "are attracted to and have sex with more than one gender. I wouldn't deny them a gay label if they wanted, but it seems like bi or some derivative like pan or queer would be more appropriate.

Plenty of gays and lesbians have sex with people of the opposite sex. Sometimes it's distant past, sometimes it's extremely rare or just under certain circumstances, sometimes it's a secret they don't tell friends. But if you have sex 40 times a year and one or two of them is with someone of the opposite sex, would you say that person is no longer gay? Similarly, if a straight person has sex once or twice a year with someone of the same sex, that doesn't mean they are a closet case.

For all of this, I see culture as playing a role, but not being the defining role. But because there are so many different LGBTQ sub-cultures, not identifying with mainstream gays does not preclude identifying with any number of other sub-groups, many of which have their own language. I'd never call myself gay. Queer, dyke, or pansexual, sure, but not gay. Lesbian is an iffy one, I avoid it if I can.

"Should we develop a new word for guys who sleep with only other guys but don't identify with anything "gay"?

We actually already do: MSM or Men who have Sex with Men. Although, should you start identifying with it? Probably not. At least not unless you want to."

Well, I would think MSM applies to guys who are straight for all intents and purposes, but still sleep with guys on the side. As opposed to bisexuals who sleep with both sexes. (I would think both terms are different, MSM vs Bisexual, but they sound alike?)

I'm talking about guys that only sleep with other guys, but don't identify with the "Gay" culture. Guys like me. I identify as gay.

"Why do they have to identify as gay? I have a female friend who is straight and we talk about everything. In fact she told me that her boyfriend figured out that he enjoyed a little finger action when receiving a blow job. He eventually asked her to use her dildo on him."

I would never say that what you like to do in bed makes you gay or straight. Only WHO you do it with in bed.

What caused me to start posting was just that I hadn't thought before as identifying myself as anything but Gay because I sleep only with guys. But I don't do anything with the "Culture of Gay". So now I'm thinking about myself in a different way. This has kind of opened some new ideas. I wanted to generate some discussion of this, thanks for responding.

I just want to clarify MSM vs Bisexual vs Gay vs Straight.

This is how it was in my head.

MSM: A guy who can fall in love with a woman and have sex with her. Can have a sex with a guy but not fall in love with him.

Bisexual: Can sleep with and fall in love with both sexes pretty much equally.

Gay: Has sex and falls in love only with men. (or predominately only with men).

Straight: Has sex and falls in love only with Woman (or predominately with women).

I guess there is no WSW. (there's an interesting conversation).

I hadn't thought about other labels/ideas/thoughts/etc. I'm finding this very interesting.

Thanks again for all who replied.

We are mixing political and scientific terms though (even though there's grey area). Bisexuality is both a political and scientific term (scholarly work has been produced on measuring and reporting on aspects of bisexuality). Gay is a political self-identification term. I am TECHNICALLY bisexual--I can have sex with and fall in love with both sexes. However, I have EMBRACED a very GAY identity--I have mostly 'gay' friends, my freetime is spent primarily in 'gay' activism, so on.

MSM can fall in love with another man, certainly, but they do not embrace a 'gay' identity--usually they shudder from such. This is usually because of hang-ups and preconceived notions. A lot of men who are GAY now started out LOATHING the label gay.

Many MSM may call themselves 'straight.' However, for all intents and purposes, 'straight' really means HETEROSEXUAL, so this happens as a matter of discomfort really.

Ultimately, labels are stupid because what people call themselves is rarely what they really are. I call myself gay, but I'm really bisexual, but I haven't had sex with a woman in well over half a decade and my last five relationships, totaling over 7 years of time dating were all with men, so I'm homosexual in behavior...

Ugh, fuck labels, we're all queer. Every last one of us. Straight boys like it up the butt, but get soft at the thought of dicks and testosterone and hairy knuckles. Gay guys often can't bear the thought of vagina but absolutely adore boobs. I've never met a woman who was 100% heterosexual, except my mom, but she's butch and loves harleys and playing baseball and Bruce Springsteen and rocking out.

We're all fucking queer, and that's about all there is to that. If someone says they're not gay, I just agree. People have a right to self-identify however they want.

Its a new millennium. Labels are for jelly jars.

Thanks Phil, that was really cool. I've always self identified as Gay, just because I only sleep with guys, but I've never felt "Gay". I guess you know what I mean. But I love gay people, in all their forms, so there you go.

I don't identify as MSM. Not sure why, but it just feels wrong. Probably because I can seriously fall in love with another guy, in every way that is possible. MSM doesn't seem to encompass all that I feel.

I like your idea. NO labels. We are what we are. This was a cool thread, thank you very much for Gloria, for starting it. Although I think it went in a different direction?

You know, that's not necessarily gay. Sometimes we straight guys just lend each other a hand (or a double-headed dildo). And as long as we're not looking at each other, then it's not gay.

You know what, Dr. Brame, I am totally 100% sure that you made that statement in good faith and good humor, and I want to let you know that I was not offended in the least by it, nor do I think there is much reason to take offense.

I think that the first few comments added in the light of doing a little clarification and educating were respectful and useful. I think the longer this goes, it gets more and more mean-spirited.

I thought this piece was appropriate and a little funny too. I agree that these guys are very likely really straight, but I don't take this as your effort to tell anyone they can't identify as they see fit.

I think its high time we all lay off a bit, and appreciate this post for what it is--a funny little anecdote, and an opportunity to civilly and intelligently discuss the subject of self-identification.

Keep the posts coming, Dr. Brame. I like them!