Steven Cheslik-DeMeyer

Why Do We Hate Each Other So Much?

Filed By Steven Cheslik-DeMeyer | March 09, 2010 11:00 AM | comments

Filed in: Entertainment, Media
Tags: Joe.My.God, Roy Ashburn, Sean Hayes

Maybe I'm just hung over, but sometimes the LGBT blogosphere gets me in a real funk.

What a sad group we are, badgering celebrities about their personal lives, boycotting and ridiculing them when they don't live up to our ridiculous standard of advocacy, publicly shaming people who have been charged with but not convicted of crimes, throwing daggers at public officials upon their outing. Would you want to come out if you knew this is what you would face?

The message I get from all this hate flying around our own community is that queers are liars and creeps deserving of nothing but scorn. If we treat our own this badly, why are we surprised when other people treat us badly, too?


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Chitown Kev | March 9, 2010 11:41 AM

And how is the LGBT blogosphere different from any other "community" in this respect?

And I think that hypocrisy has more to do with the Roy Ashburn case than anything else; both Ashburn's and those in the community that were willing to protect him in spite of his voting record.

I'm always more than a little disheartened in particular by the "Crimes of the Week" posts at JMG. I know that Joe feels he's doing a public service by exposing these, but it's the comments that invariably ensue that always get me -- as though religion and faith are little more than delusional acts and that the people that participate in them (and gays in particular) are simply self-loathing individuals who need to get a clue.

We are so insistent that people accept us at face value, and yet somehow we find it ever so difficult to respond in kind. Yes, the child abuse scandals in Ireland (and now Germany) are heinous... but is that any reason to paint *every* priest as a child molester? Is that any reason to disregard all the *good* that the church has done, despite the folks that run it?

And while it's easy to slur folks like Maggie Gallagher and NOM, we cannto forget that these are people with their own fears and mistrusts. Yes, some of them are obviously out there to make a buck off national paranoia, but others actually believe what they think is right. Seems to me that these are the ones we need to focus on bringing over to our "side" instead of non-stop slamming them.

Just my 0.02. YRMV.

Yeah, I have to say I find the JMG "Holy Crimes" very ugly and more than a little scary. I'm all for pointing out hypocrisy and holding people in positions of authority accountable, but a list of accusations of sex crimes is deeply irresponsible, hateful, potentially libelous.

Convicted child molesters have put up blogs trying to tie in man/boy love with the gay rights movement. Thanks to Wikisposure these people are being exposed. Wikisposure recognizes the difference between pedophilia and LGBT's and does not approve of Peter Labarbara blurring the line. Labarbara's message goes to fundamental churches in the USA and makes it hard for gay couples to adopt children. Example of Wikisposures good work.

http://www.wikisposure.com/NG

Thanks for proving my point, Merrill. You and Ashburn will make great friends.

What is your point ? Your past criminal background molesting children is public record. For some odd reason you have tried to destroy me, Pamshouseblend, PeteyPornPig, Wayne Besen and Michael Rogers to no avail. You should know when to give up a blog that goes against the good works of so many.

As far as my criticisms goes, it goes to the danger of the closet. All you did was prove that when it comes to addressing those dangers, there are people who have a narrowminded definition as to what those dangers are.

My criticisms have been enough to get you to reveal what you really are. As such, as far as I'm concerned, you are a cancer to the intregity of The Dallas Principles.

Anyone who considers you a leader in equality is out of their freaking mind.

The Dallas Principles, to the best of my knowledge, do not extend to paedophilia. If they did, I would renounce them immediately.

Of course Maura. I was hesitant in pointing the finger as it is against my compassionate nature for the outsider. Live and let live. But when the margins get blurred we must define who we are and who we are not. We are not a community sexually attracted to children. Period. If a blogger wants to have a blog about man/boy love then so be it. Just don't try to pass it off as Civil Rights for LGBT's.

How about self loathing tax cheats?

I hereby withdraw my comment as apparently I have wandered into some kind of battle in the gay male community between factions about whose history and of whose positions I know nothing. I apologise for having said anything at alll and ask the editors wo remove my statement.

And I extend an apology to NelsonG

Joe has long been complicit in the genocide of queer peoples. He has a huge megaphone and he uses it to silence queer voices and to trap us in the prison of gender. Joe is an example of how a putatively liberating voice can become coopted by patriarchal and transphobic power structures.

Whoa. No, sorry, but this is an unfair and dangerous accusation. Joe may have his own political agenda (as do we all), but he has never advocated genocide, nor does he disempower queer folk. His commentators may have their own voices about it, but, as with here at Bilerico, that's not his responsibility.

Further, I would suggest that if you're going to make an accusation like that, you do it with your own name out front and centre. Dont hide behind a handle, not when you're saying things like this. All you're doing now is underlining Steven's point with a bright red, 1/2" wide line.

Dear Steven,

I see a pattern here. A brand new contributor tries to get noticed by taking a shot at someone and creating a little storm. You are not the first to do it. I hope you will be the last. Reputations are better built slowly and kindly and with magnanimity and heartfelt wisdom.

Joe is a friend of mine, but even if he were not, I think you might want to consider offering him an apology.

Your reference to him in your post was self-serving.


Spare me the drama, Father Tony. This is not personal. Please don't insult me by implying that it is. I don't know Joe. I've enjoyed his blog on and off for years, but I have a strong moral objection to This Week in Holy Crimes, and I don't see how it could possibly be "self-serving" to initiate a conversation about it in the community. TBP contributors and readers are a thoughtful and passionate group. I think they can handle some disagreement without getting their feelings hurt.

Before you decide who I am and what I'm doing here, why don't you wait a little while, read, listen, get to know me better? Then judge me if you need to. But give me a chance.

Dear Steven,

In this format we are known by our words rather than by our begging to be recognized as something.

You took a shot at JMG, describing him as part of a "sad" group who ridicule, accuse, shame and throw daggers. Have you not read the perpetually centered Bilerico blogroll that lists Joe as a friend of The Project? That is not how we treat our friends.

From my point of view, your attack is right down there in the same mud you decry.

Sometimes, people who get banned from commenting on JMG (either permanently or temporarily) because of their obnoxious comments seek this kind of retribution.

You're still trying to cast this in personal terms, and it's just not personal. Like I said, I don't know Joe, but even if I did I would take pains to avoid attacking him personally. You say Joe is your friend and a friend of TBP. In my world, friends call each other on their bulls**t.

I work pretty hard to avoid personal attacks in this realm. If you ever catch me attacking a blogger or commenter or anyone personally, I'll accept your scolding condescension, knowing I deserve it. Until then, back off, okay? I just got here.

Chitown Kev | March 10, 2010 12:01 PM

Steven, I think that if you had cited a few different examples from several blogs (as opposed to citing Joe Jervis in order to buttress two of your bullet points) then it would seem less personal.

Juston Thouron Juston Thouron | March 10, 2010 1:06 PM

You say that "In my world, friends call each other on their bulls**t." Well Steven, you got your wish. And about 90% of the people on this thread have called you on yours.

In three short paragraphs you managed to unintentionally(?) target an experienced, well-known and beloved blogger. Confuse heated reactions to hate with hate itself. Overgeneralize about a "message" that "queers are liars and creeps deserving of nothing but scorn." from only three posts, THREE POSTS. And when confronted about your post, respond with "back off."

There are a lot of different ways you could have chosen to bring up the subject matter of how we LGBT people treat each other in the blogosphere. You chose this way. You have the feedback you wanted.

"beloved blogger" according to whom and for whom? I don't read JMG regularly, but I doubt that even he would be taking all this quite so personally. Steve's used a well-known blog as an example, for a short BLOG. People should feel free to speculate upon and even, yes, generalise about other blogs. And others should feel free to critique them for said generalising, if they feel that to be the case. But, come on folks, let's not turn this into some family affair, where Cousin Steve has wrongly been airing Uncle Joe's dirty laundry.

These people are adults and they're bloggers in the public sphere. We can't pretend that we're not supposed to critique each other on the grounds that some are more "beloved" than others. And let's not speak for each other by claiming that someone is "beloved." This is not a fan club.

Juston Thouron Juston Thouron | March 10, 2010 6:05 PM

You're not portraying my comments accurately, Yasmin.

I'm not treating this as a rumble between two 'fan clubs'(although there are some on here from both blogs who have). 'Fan club' are your words not mine. And you greatly exaggerated my use of the word, 'beloved.'

In my posts I am trying to point out some things about Steve's post that are inherently problematic and don't serve his stated purpose for the post.

It seems that Steve and a couple of commentators at TBP simply wanted us all to ignore the undeniably focused nature of his examples, the self-confessed 'funk' he was in when he posted them, as well as the inflammatory language he chose to use. The combination makes Steve seem very disingenuous when he later protests that the attacks are not personal.

And for the record, I am with Alex too. Steve's three examples would have been better served as stand alone, more extensive explanations of his views.

In my opinion, Steve flubbed the post.

Juston,

We read the post differently. As for context: While Alex can speak for himself, I read his note as simply noting that the topics could be expanded - not that they *should* have been. As for the self-described "funk," I don't read that as Steve flailing around and writing a miserable post because he didn't have the wherewithal to write a supposedly stronger piece but as the mood he's put in by his perception of the queer blogosphere.

Steve's a blogger, as am I on occasion. And I think it behooves us to remember that while that status does not give unlimited license, bloggers are apt and allowed to fire off short pieces that provoke conversation. They're not the unacknowledged reporters of our time (and here I'm in disagreement with the notion that we are automatically some kind of "citizen journalists," but that's for another day. And I'm not trying to imply that you've made that specific claim, btw.) There are still responsibilities that come with short pieces (as I pointed out on a recent post here), but I just don't see Steve having violated any core principles.

How do you flub a blog post when the genre defies definition? Who's setting the exams here?

I'll stand by what I wrote, and leave it there.

Juston Thouron Juston Thouron | March 10, 2010 6:49 PM

STEVE: "Yeah, I have to say I find the JMG "Holy Crimes" very ugly and more than a little scary. I'm all for pointing out hypocrisy and holding people in positions of authority accountable, but a list of accusations of sex crimes is deeply irresponsible, hateful, potentially libelous."

They are, as has been pointed out elsewhere on this thread, part of the public record.

You, Yasmin, state: "There are still responsibilities that come with short pieces (as I pointed out on a recent post here), but I just don't see Steve having violated any core principles."

I think you are equivocating, Yasmin.

I won't. Steve flubbed the post.

I thought I was done, but I do want to respond to this before I move on. I'm glad you at least brought up the original topic. Too bad we had to argue about Joe's possibly hurt feelings instead of arguing about the tactic of publicly shaming people who've been charged with sex crimes.

Chitown Kev | March 10, 2010 7:24 PM

But there are those of us on here (and at Joe's and throughout the blogosphere) that are VERY tired of reaching out to people with all sorts of kumbaya and looooove and getting it thrown back in our faces by people who are really in no position to criticize.

And it seems as if you don't want to acknowledge that our community is angry about this defamation, it has a right to be angry about this defamation even though it is expressed inapproiately at times.

Juston Thouron Juston Thouron | March 10, 2010 7:43 PM

I get it Steve. But there is a difference between defending Joe, defending the "Holy Crimes" posts, and criticizing the way you handled your post and subsequent comments. My intention was to do the latter.

There are no such things as "strong moral objections" to listings of clerical indictments and convictions. This is important information that is largely censored by the corporate media because of pro religious bias.

And while it's easy to slur folks like Maggie Gallagher and NOM, we cannto forget that these are people with their own fears and mistrusts.

So are all the people who are constitutionally forbidden to marry in 30 states (and maybe 31, if they have their way in New Hampshire). And I think it's safe to say those people endure more harm from the activities of NOM than Gallagher does when we say mean things about her.

Yes, some of them are obviously out there to make a buck off national paranoia, but others actually believe what they think is right.

So do neo-Nazis... Regardless of their motivations, they're hurting people and must be on some level aware that they are, but are either doing so on purpose or don't care because they think writing their neighbors out of the Constitution serves the greater good, no matter how much harm and distress it causes. Whatever the case may be, I think "evil" would be a good word to describe what they're doing.

Seems to me that these are the ones we need to focus on bringing over to our "side" instead of non-stop slamming them.

I'm sure there are lots of rank-and-file types out there who oppose gay marriage or other gay rights who can be swayed, but Maggie is a lost cause and has repeatedly shown herself to be motivated by nothing but anti-gay malice, despite all the "gay friends" she claims to have.

As someone who has been subject to gay on gay hate and threatened by equality advocates, all too often I've had people, including some who write for Bilerico and their affiliate websites preferring to remain deaf, dumb, and blind when their friends in the equality arena are caught with their pants down.

I would hope these are more than just words I'm reading on a blog.

Is this what bilerico has sunk to? Allowing some guy with an attitude problem use a "column" on this blog to trash other gay bloggers? What a coward! If you have a beef with Joe my God or any gay blogger why not go there and man up to your slander. Instead of being a jerk and shit disturbing in the safety of this place?

I know that the "gay men" of bilerico despise gay men and gay men's sexuality especially, but this article is the limit! What next?

Wait wait wait, a contributor literally writes up three paragraphs saying gay men should treat each other better, and that's proof that "the "gay men" of bilerico despise gay men and gay men's sexuality."

Puh-leeze. We don't need any more people around here arguing that up is down.

BTW, there is no intellectual safety around here. Bilerico is not a safe space and was never intended to be.

Wait, why is the second story considered to be about us hating each other?

It's about a group of alleged child molestors. Why the "hate each other" connection?

Three paragraphs about gay men treating each other better? Are you for real? That may have been the "premise" but the meat of his argument was to trash another gay blogger twice! This is fair and informative to you? Not once do you EVER publish anything about gay men that is in any way positive or helpful -- everything is about hate and trashing -- yet you do not even see it. The problem lies right here at your doorstep.

Yes, yes, yes, Dwerk. Sing us a song - and be sure you serve whine and cheese with it.

Go back to the JMG comment thread and bitch about Bilerico some more. What happened? All the people making fun of you there for complaining about TBP make you feel justified in trying to claim we're doing it? Puhleeze.

A columnist made a point and linked other sites. Hello. Heard of blogging? It's a common technique. No site or blogger was named and it was published on the front page. Steven didn't have to run around in comments section of various blogs trashing the entire sites because it made him feel good about himself to tear others down.

I realize you have an issue with discussing any group of people outside of gay men. I know you feel constantly attacked by anything that might challenge your stagnant thinking. And I know you have a tendency to lash out and scrape up lies and generalizations to try and support your half-baked assertions. But troll in someone else's comment thread, please.

Your hostility proves my point. Total phoney. And the most sex negative "gay" blog since Victorian prudery.

Ha! Getting hostility lessons from you, Dwerk, is like getting tips from Sarah Palin on how to give a perfect speech. Goodbye now. There's a comment section out there somewhere begging for you to say something negative about Bilerico. Go find it.

Not once do you EVER publish anything about gay men that is in any way positive or helpful

Um, have you looked at the site on like... any day ever?

I switch back and forth from FOX to MSNBC. What a hotbed of hate just to get ratings. I have lived a long time and I have never seen any group come together except briefly after WWII, a false "Pleasantville". As people got richer and meaner the competition turned to greed, hate and fear. I thought 9/11 would wake people up to universal love. It hasn't due to religious/political differences. Balls of fire in the Middle East are just around the corner.

I think this brief article raises valid questions:

Do we accomplish anything by blaming and/or attacking people? Or, put another way, is there anything persuasive about anger and shame?

If we ask this in the context of just wanting to create awareness, I think the answer is Yes.

If we ask this in the context of an understanding that we need people to join us, I think the answer is No.

The real challenge is deciding WHEN we've created enough awareness and we actually get to work enrolling people to stand with us. We won't WIN by standing alone - no matter how hard we yell or how angry we get.

Anger begets anger, not support.

This post is the most honest and accurate depiction of how LGBT "equality advocates" have been behaving for years.
I've recently been subjected to private emails from two "advocates" that are so abusive, they'd be worthy of a white supremacist hate group.
Both senders claim that their sexuality justifies this kind of abuse
Enough is enough.
People need to speak up and demand an end to this nightmare.

Hmm the first I agree with - I don't agree with badgering friendly or non-hostile celebs about their personal lives.


But the others? I consider the shaming to be very much an act of defence. These people are part of organisations that dedicate a vast amount of time and resources to destroying us as much as possible. They wave their "morality" around and try to hurt us. They shame us, judge us, attack us and believe they are superior to us. I would consider this an act of self-defence

And as to the hypocrite? He is an openly anti-gay politician - again, this is self-defence. He has attacked, denigrated and generally been a blight on gay rights and gay people


For me, what I am FAR more tired of is the gay community giving homophobia such a huge pass. We're too polite, too gentle, too careful and too respectful of people who give us zero respect.

Except for the first example, what I get from this is that we have a right to fight back. That what is being used against us is wrong, that we have a right to be angry and to attack that which tries to destroy us

(And why do you list all the sex abusers ion the second list as "our own" pray tell? What indication is there that ANY of those holy people listed are GBLT? How is this hating ourselves?)

I agree fully on the first comment. It is wrong to badger a celeb about their sexuality, especially when they are neutral or friendly to us. It's uncalled for.

the second? Well it may not be nice - but the organisations these people are part of aren't nice either. They are part of institutions that dedicate no small amount of resources and energy to destroying every right we have, to destroying us. They shame us, judge us, attack us and fight us constantly. And one of the things they regularly do - one of the lies they regularly tell - is that we are child abusers (which is why I am disturbed that Billrico has apparently included attacking alleged child abusers as the gay community attacking our own... can you explain this?) This is an exposure of hypocrisy - and of the great shiny glass houses that those who are so eager to throw rocks live in.

The third? This hypocrite has fought every single damn piece of gay rights legislation he has ever had the opportunity to fight. He may be gay, but he's not my brother and he's not MY own. And he will be used as a poster child by the hateful right on how even gay men oppose us being treated like equals. he has earned our scorn - our pity as well - but certainly our scorn

Why are we expected to be nice all the time? I am tired of us treating our attackers with kid gloves. I am tired of us playing nice with homophobes. I am tired of us desperately showing respect for those who show us none. I am tired of staggering up the high road, while those on the low road throw mud at us and STILL claim (and are accorded) the moral high ground

I'm with you about being "nice." That only works when the other side is principled, plays fair and is acting only out of naivety. But the religious right is a theocratic fascist political movement that wants nothing less than to drive us all back into the closet and erase us from society and is willing to do so by any means it deems necessary.

This is a big reason why we keep taking three steps backward for every one-fifth tip-toe forward. It's because the religious right knows it can commit the most extraordinary offenses against our humanity and dignity, but all we'll do is have a candlelight vigil.

The RR functions on the classic logic of the schoolyard bully, picking on us because it can and because it presents a nice face to the authorities. It's only when we hit back that it will learn its lesson (and I mean "hit" metaphorically, of course).

"Why are we expected to be nice all the time? I am tired of us treating our attackers with kid gloves." - YES, Sparky!

I am tired of "debating" my family's "worthiness" to a DUE Constitutional right. As if I'm going to debate my need to FIGHT to PROTECT my family from experiencing a spouse's deportation, theft of pension, kidnapping, emotional torture, job discrimination, disabling conditions (hello), or the myriad of crap we experience DAILY when rights are denied.

http://gaytaxprotest.blogspot.com/2010/03/doma-is-violence-against-our-family.html

I think the gay coverage of Roy Ashburn (& I've done some of it) has been misguided.

Yes -- I love a good fall from grace. I love the revelation of hypocrisy.

But when I read what he was saying in the radio interview, it upset me. This guy hates himself, and that's why he hates us.

He is never going to work for us until someone helps him stop hating himself. LGB community needs to reach out to this man, not throw him to the lions.

I guess I should consider my first post to have been a success since I seem to have started a little s**t-storm. I seriously hesitated before I posted this -- I wasn't sure I wanted my inaugural post on TBP to be negative. But blogging for me has always been about sharing what's on my mind, so I went with it.

It's nice to meet y'all. I'm very happy to be a part of this community. I'm here because I love the conversation, so thanks for making me feel welcome!

You're off to a good start. Any of the items you linked to could (and I hope you will) be expanded into a full post.

I'm with Alex on this one. I'm especially concerned with the constant need of the gay community to point out the "pedophiles" among priests while not acknowledging that a) a number of these cases may turn out to be false accusations and b) the fact that gay men in particular have historically been targeted as pedophiles points to the fact that the term is loaded with the worst kind of smear and panic campaigns. It's incumbent upon queers to challenge the discourse around pedophilia, not buy into it.

Which is a long-winded way of saying welcome, Steve (and I have to work really hard at not calling you "Go!" :-))

Thanks for the welcome, Yasmin. I feel right at home. :-)

If we prove gays are well-adjusted and just like straight people, then they'll accept us.

That appears to be the plan. And the problem with that is some gays are not well-adjusted and a lot of us really aren't like straight people. Some of us don't want to be like straight people. And that just throws a wrench in the plan.

I understand that these are all symptoms though. Ashburn is a symptom. Abusive priests are a symptom. The cause is trying to force people to stick to some plan that they simply cannot or will not stick to. And just like everyone else, the gay community has devised a plan for gay people....which will come with it's own problems.

Chitown Kev | March 9, 2010 3:33 PM

But see, I could say that "straight" people (or any grouping of people) do exactly the same thing.

I think that the media (especially now with the Internet) thrives on this opposition between what is "normal" and what is "deviant" from "the plan.' (whatever various and sundry ideas people have of what "the plan" is.

I don't think that the GLBT blogosphere is any different, in that regard. That's my primary issue with Mr. DeMeyer's post (thought provoking as it is).

That is heteronormativity: the social force and institution of "everyone be like each other".

Juston Thouron Juston Thouron | March 9, 2010 5:20 PM

Bravo Antonia..... The urge to force others to conform has many murderous precedents in history, including American history.

I've never understood the almost universal impulse in homo sapiens to try to make everyone else just like themselves.

But see, I could say that "straight" people (or any grouping of people) do exactly the same thing.

That's actually what I was implying...that's what straight people do. And we don't have to be like straight people. We can, you know, "celebrate diversity." If only because we are so frickin' diverse that getting us to conform is doomed to fail.

We are a "grouping of people" who are grouped together due to our nonconforming ways. We don't mirror other groups. And there is no plan we could come up with that more than half of us could follow.

So if we are to just accept this behavior of planning other people's lives, who are we going to leave out? Who are we going to leave behind? And who gets to make that decision?

Steven,

Glad to have you on board. I'm appreciative of calling for more respectful interactions with each other. That said, I've been hearing these sentiments so long that they are beginning to lose meaning to me when depicted so strongly as violent hate.

I think it's a misnomer to use the term "hate" to represent the bigots who hate us, then use the same term for the lack of respectful dialog in the blogosphere. First off, it's the blogosphere! For whatever reason, it breeds disagreement and conflict. I've never seen a substantive blog with a large discussion base that didn't get nasty. That doesn't mean that the larger LGBT community shares the same outlook. Ever attended a PFLAG meeting? A trans support group? A campus queer group? A queer bookstore? I'm sure there are things to complain about, but it's vastly different than what you see on the blogosphere.

Secondly, it's a mistake to equate "hate" groups with disrespectful and violent invective. It might be comforting to think of the extremes of our opponents as vile, ugly people foaming at the mouth for everyone to see, but that's not reality. Above, David points to hateful emails from equality advocates and compares their abusiveness to white supremacists. Over the past 5 years my partner has been keeping an eye on and occasionally protesting a local neo-nazi group. In general, they tend to be very kind and welcoming. One woman has a very grandmotherly feel to her. But they like to spread the idea that maybe the Jews deserved the holocaust. Real bigotry isn't about shouting in your face, in fact it is more often a quiet smile while telling you that you're going to hell or deserve to die.

And finally, as much as I'd like us to be more respectful in our conversations, this pales in comparison to what I think of when I think of hate in the LGBT community. My ex was cornered in an alley outside a gay bar and assaulted by a gay man who was a regular patron of the bar and was unaware that it was a trans dance night. That's hate within the LGBT community. I'd be happy to put up with a few folks yelling invective at my internet avatar rather than declarations that all trans people are insane or shouldn't get access to human rights or anti-trans assaults within our own supposedly safe community spaces.

This is not my first time at the rodeo. And thanks, but I attended my share of ACT UP and Queer Nation meetings back in the day. I understand that we get rowdy and adamant with each other sometimes, that there's value in that, and that passionate debate is not the same thing as gay-bashing. My post was not a call for us to be gentler in our dialogue with each other. I'm not asking anyone to be nice. I'm all for trouble-making.

I wrote this post to object to 3 specific things that disturb me: 1) badgering celebrities who don't want to speak about their sexuality in terms that are approved by the LGBT establishment, 2) publishing the names of people who have been accused BUT NOT CONVICTED of sex crimes, and 3) PERSONAL attacks directed at politicians who get caught with their pants down (in this case, I linked to a post on JMG, but the hateful stuff was more in the comments than in Joe's post). I don't have a problem at all calling any of the above 3 things "hate."

Chitown Kev | March 9, 2010 3:58 PM

Well, in the case of item #3, I suppose that MSM should not have reported on matters as various as the Bob Packwood sexual harassment scandal, the Kwame Kilpatrick text message scandal, the Barney Frank prostitution scandal...that list could go on and on and on...

As far as #2 is concerned, I remember the Cardinal Joseph Bernadin scandal where the accuser retracted his accusations.

(And as far as the communications that go on within various groupings, I googled "cardinal bernadin scandal" and came up with this doozy as one of the first hits
http://pblosser.blogspot.com/2004/07/flaming-gay-cardinal-bernardin.html)

And exactly what is the "LGBT establishment" (not being hostile here, simply asking for a definition.)

After all, to my mind, it was the "LGBT establishment" that enabled Roy Ashburn's closet, in spite of his virulent homophobic votes in the California State Senate and his campaigning for anti-gay causes.

Juston Thouron Juston Thouron | March 9, 2010 4:18 PM

And that is where I have to disagree with you on points 2 and 3 Steven.

Regarding your second point, it has been very gratifying to me that Joe posts the notices of "Holy Crimes." The hypocrisy of Christians is the issue he is addressing and it gets regular consistent coverage in very very few news sources. Also, I don't think it serves viable debate (your stated point)to then accuse the LGBT community of hating haters. We don't hate them, we are outraged by them. There is a difference between outrage and hate. They have no reason to hate us, as we do them no harm, whereas their harm to us is so great it is hard to objectively quantify even in this day and age.

Regarding your third point, it is mystifying to me that you do not understand the difference between outing a private person and outing an elected official with power at his disposal, a completely anti-gay voting record and who has stated defiantly that he will continue to vote anti-gay. It is as if you've never heard the term "self-loathing." We are not responsible for the emotional well being of such a person. Ashburn is a traitor and the pain and suffering, oppression and outright tyranny caused by him and his ilk is legion. Closeted gays selling themselves as anti-gay conservatives for personal gain is the height of cynicism. It is not just a phenomenon, it is very nearly a truism.

As for your third point, I have great sympathy for it and for Sean. But I've seen no posts that call for "hating" him.

You state, "I don't have a problem at all calling any of the above 3 things "hate."" I do because you are misrepresenting the issues. It is not hate. It is outrage. There is a difference. Hate is to condemn someone for who they are, something they cannot change about themselves. Outrage is to condemn what someone does, something they can change about themselves.

You have made a mistake in your post.

Ahh, I presumed you were speaking to a larger pattern rather than focusing exclusively on your examples. If you're only talking about those three specific things, I agree that each of those are deplorable things. I might quibble whether or not to use the word, hate, but perhaps that has more to do with it's use elsewhere. If hate is the appropriate term for badgering a celebrity, perhaps we need a stronger term for beating down queers than "hate crime." I don't like the implication, which some of the commenters here are taking it to, that both acts are somehow on the same level.

Maybe none of us has a right to complain while gays get lynched in Iran.

I agree about badgering celebrities with regard to their sexuality. I've always found that to be in poor taste, and I can't help but notice that 99.9% of the time, celebrities suspected to be gay also happen to be really hot guys...I mean, Johnny Weir is as straight as Lombard St., but I hate to dash your hopes in arguing that it's highly unlikely Taylor Lautner is family...

As for our treatment of people like Roy Ashburn, that's where my agreement ends. It would be one thing if he had stayed in the closet but supported or remained neutral on GLBT issues, but he chose to be openly hostile to us. A repressed childhood that forced him into a miserable, self-loathing, woman-marrying, child-having closet is a perfectly valid explanation for his behavior, but it is not an excuse, and until he apologizes to us and makes amends for what he has done, he deserves nothing but scorn.

Regarding JoeMyGod publicly shaming people, I regularly read the "Holy Crimes" entries, which are taken from police reports (and are therefore public record), and he's careful not to convict the people in print, so there's nothing libelous. And the whole point of the list is to expose hypocrisy among religious people. You may disagree with that, but many of the non-religious among us (including me) see it as a valid criticism of organized religion, particularly those religions that tend not to be too friendly to us.

All the people making fun of you there for complaining about TBP

Manipulative much. No one did anything of the sort. You put that in merely to discredit me using falsehoods. That seems to be the stock in trade of bile rico -- you mis-attribute and smear -- vile utterly.

I also do not trash ANY other blog except yours. I have done it since I came across it and will do it as long as it remains as it is. A sham. The most disgraceful mockery of gay liberation ever cultivated in a PC sex-hating bubble.

ps You seem to know an awful lot about me a mere comment thread commenter -- can it be my words scare you and all your minions here because I have sussed out your bull. I have got your phoney number and you do not like being called on it. Too bad -- you claim to be the voice of "LBGTQ" -- well you're NOT.

I wish someone would simply answer the original question.
What, for example, makes two nationally known equality/advocates think that merely announcing their sexuality justifies hurling abusive taunts at other community members.
When did this kind of behavior become a "gay right"?
Is this behavior helping or hurting us?
When does demanding something better cease to be "anti-gay bigotry"?
It's a discussion we need to have.

As you can see David, no one is really interested in having a discussion. Their hate was broadcast loud and clear.

Maybe it's time to for the Southern Poverty Law Center to consider people like Charles Merrill, Maura Hennessey, and those other posers to their hate watch.

It's long overdue.

Mr Nelson G;
I have apologised Sir, what more can I do?
In the interest of not furthering discord amongsst ourselves,along the lines of the article, I've aknowledged my regret over my remarks in what is clearly a long running division in the gay male community, one that I neither recognised or was familiar with.

What can I do beyond this, Sir?

Yeah, I agree with Alaric about point number 2. These are public records and are official indictments and charges, not rumours. In addition, the list specifies the state of the charges. I fail to see how making a list of formally charged child abusers counts as gay on gay hate.

How is pointing out an anti-gay bigot is a hypocrit gay on gay hate? To my knowledge, it was police and government sources that led to his outing, not other gay men, so the forced outing is not so much of an issue here and the article cited actually contains the politician's own words and defense as the majority of the post. I agree with Joe on this one, I have zero pity for an anti-gay bigot who plans to continue an anti-gay platform, regardless of who he fucks.


The first one is the only legitimate candidate for gay on gay hate, but how is a celebrity having trouble with the advocate representative of the general gay community? I'll be sure to keep an eye out for all of those reporters wanting to know my sexuality, because that's a serious worry for most queer people.

If you commented above, I will remind you of the original question:

"If we treat our own this badly, why are we surprised when other people treat us badly, too?"

Sooner or later, we DO have to address the question of whether or not any of these expressions of anger are effective.

Chitown Kev | March 9, 2010 10:23 PM

AndrewW, I could detail some of my experiences here of being "othered" in the black community and I'm black.

And I don't have to make any reference to homophobia to do it either.

Steven Cheslik-DeMeyer has made some interesting points. Now, one may disagree with his methodology & approach to opening the discussion up, but, I certainly can give him props for effectiveness if the above comments are any indication.

So, in my opinion, for his first time @ bat, he hit a home run. I have tremendous respect for Bil, his Deputy Editors Alex & Waymon, and especially the contributors here. They perform an invaluable service to the greater good for all LGBT folk, if for no other reason than to make people think.

The Project raises awareness of issues that need to see the light of day and be argued about, advocated for, and illustrated and held up as examples.

I've been a journalist for 30 plus years now and I have to say, that in my capacity as a correspondent, I am in awe of the citizen journalists here, at Pam Spaulding's place, Joe Jervis, Andy Towle who all have done an outstanding job of making a difference for the greater LGBT community.

I've always held this one truth about the blogosphere as gospel folks, if you don't like what is being written/published...then by all means, go start your own damn blog.

Well, Nelson, as you know, I've already approached the Southern Poverty Law Center about "equality advocates" who seek to hurt other community members, and about gay "journalists" who intentionally write provably false hit pieces on LGBT people.
We'lll see how this goes.
Meanwhile, I hope someone here answers the original question posed by this thread.

You do have to admire how Maura Hennessy and Charles Merrill lied, inverted, and distorted stuff. If one didn't know they were LGBT, what would be the difference between them and Porno Pete, for example?

I have a great deal of respect for Mr Merrill, Mr G. Just how did I lie? I simply stated that to the best of my knowledge the Dallas principles exclude paedophilia.

I am a Lesbian activist and a feminist, MrG.
What exactly is your issue?

And I do not appreciate the personal attack of being compared to Mr LaBarbera.

My issue is calling out anti-gay hate.

And I do not appreciate the personal attack of being compared to Mr LaBarbera.

And yet you find it perfectly acceptable to call me a pedophile.

How very transparent of you.

You're supposed to a civil rights lawyer and gay rights activist?

It is to laugh.

I did not call you a paedophile; I stated that the Dallas principles were inapplicable to the issue

I am a prosecutor and a Lesbian rights activist.

I did not call you a paedophile; I stated that the Dallas principles were inapplicable to the issue

I am a prosecutor and a Lesbian rights activist.

This comment has been deleted for violation of the Terms of Service.

While arguing about an opinion or idea is encouraged, personal attacks will not be tolerated. Please be respectful of others.

The editorial team will delete a comment that is off-topic, abusive, exceptionally incoherent, includes a slur or is soliciting and/or advertising.

I don't know what happened between Nelson and Maura, but I can certainly verify that Michael Airhart of Truth Wins Out is on a personal crusade to "warn" all LGBT people about Nelson: Wayne Besen enables this. I was kicked out of Truth Wins Out for refusing to participate in this.
I have emails on file from Airhart and Besen which prove that they deliberately provoke hostilities within the movement.
BTW, has anyone checked out the QUIT Palestinesite site? This "queer activist" group supports Palestinian suicide bombers but does NOTHING to help save the lives of LGBT Arabs who are being murdered across the Arab world.
When are we going to stop planting our lips on the asses of groups who behave like this?

luckily, i don't consider myself part of the "we".

i can't possibly try to corral an entire collective of people linked only by their romantic and sexual inclinations.

i'd rather just go have a sandwich and avoid pointless politics and herding.

Nelson;
If I have affronted you, I apologise. I am bowing out. I clearly am unaware of the varied agendas and power games being played out in this thread and have stepped upon some toes. For that I apologise and depart

Wayne Besen | March 10, 2010 10:31 PM

I would like to set the record straight on David Alex Nahmod and his attacks on Truth Wins Out.

Truth Wins Out was the only organization that gave him a forum to tell his tale about how his ex-boyfriend, Beecher, was allegedly snatched by a Christian fundamentalist family and sequestered in the Arizona desert.

We also were kind enough, for a short time, to give him a forum to write feature articles for our blog. However, we made it clear as a condition for writing that he was not to blog about the Beecher saga, because there did not appear to be enough supporting evidence to justify his bitter attacks on the family Beecher was living with Arizona.

Unfortunately, Mr. Nahmod broke our agreement and published a Beecher story behind our backs which we had to remove from our site.

We warned Nahmod that his reckless and irresponsible allegations put us in potential legal jeopardy. We had no choice but to end his volunteer work on our website. We also urged him to cease and desist using our organization's name to lend credibility to the Beecher saga.

Upon further examination, we have since come to view his allegations against the Arizona family as groundless, baseless and without merit. We now warn other organizations to be careful of Mr. Nahmod and his attempts to peddle his story.

Finally, right before we parted ways with Nahmod we expressed our concern with his increasing online buddy-buddy relationship with Mr. Nelson Garcia and his infamous NG Blog. We were rightfully concerned about Mr. Garcia's dubious past, as well as his penchant to irrationally lash out and attack LGBT organizations in which we had a good working relationship.

Mr. Nahmod elected to associate himself with this unsavory character, which also helped sour the relationship between he and Truth Wins Out.

http://www.wikisposure.com/NG

We did our best to part ways with Mr. Nahmod as amicably as possible. We endured nasty e-mails, phone rants at various hours, irritable tirades, violent mood swings and long, emotionally drawn out conversations to avoid hurting his feelings.

Finally, we asked him to end contact with us because he was becoming a distraction. Sadly, he refused and began a campaign of harassment that comes, in my view, very close to stalking.

We learned that his clingy behavior was something of a pattern for Mr. Nahmod.

http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valleyfever/2008/09/the_maricopa_county_justice_co.php

Finally, having run out of patience, I told him to get lost under no uncertain terms. I wish it had not come to this, but his obsession with Truth Wins Out and his inability to accept that we had let him go left us little choice (short of a restraining order).

Mr. Nahmod needs to stop pretending he is a victim of an angry LGBT community. In truth, he is an aggressive, predatory victimizer - not the victim he pretends to be.

Yes, people are mean to him. But, that is primarily because of his obsessive personality and inability to go away when kindly asked.

For the millionth time, I hope this is my last contact EVER with Mr. Nahmod. But, if the past is any indication, he will continue on his crusade to harass us (and others on his enemies list) for some time to come.

Goodbye Mr. Nahmod. (Please)

Wayne Besen
Executive Director
Truth Wins Out

As usual, Mr. Besen fails to explain how I can possibly stalk people who live thousands of miles away from me, people who's home addresses and home numbers I have no way of obtaining, nor do I want to.
He links to a story written by a lesbian journalist who admits to having lied and ignored documentation: speaking out against her deploraple ethics, as many have done, hardy constitutes "stalking".


As for Nelson Garcia, I've never met nor spoken to him, nor do I expect to. I refuse to vilify Mr. Garcia for legal issues he had years ago that frankly, have nothing to do with me OR with TWO.
That Besen & Airhart freely admit to provoking hostilities between Garcia, myself and others is a good example of the gay on gay hate that needs to stop.
Why don't you show everyone the rave review I gave your book, Wayne?

The Southern Poverty Law Center will be examining the abusive emails in which you taunted me, as well as other emails in which you verified my claims.
They will also be comparing the lies Niki D'Andrea wrote in the Phoenix New Times to the documentation Ms. D'Andrea admits to having ignored.

While you ponder that, know that I'm always open to talking again and ending the hostilities. This isn't what I want, it's what you want.

...and the Southern Poverty Law Center, like every single reputable outlet and resource David Nahmod has badgered, will find no merits whatsoever to his "case." And then he is likely to accuse them of homophobia and harass them. And Mr. Nahmod -- it IS possible to stalk someone who lives thousands of miles away. It's called "cyberstalking," and it consists of continually posting harassing and libelous blogs about a person, sending constant threatening e-mails, etc. Several states have statutes against cyberstalking.

david alex nahmod | March 11, 2010 1:59 AM

The more I look at Besen's post, and other posts here, the clearer it becomes; this animosity is really what most of us want.
Why do we hate each other so much?
Why won't anyone even try to let go of all the hate?

The funny part of Wayne's statement is that neither David or myself cited Truth Wins Out.

I was liking what Wayne Besen was doing. ALOT. I even recorded his interviews on radio and TV appearances and put them on my blog. No one else did that.

I've even defended Wayne when he was being attacked by his now ex-gay friends.

Wayne and his buddy at TWO are having a shit fit because one, they wanted full exclusivity to David Alex Nahmod's ongoing problems with christian cultists in Arizona and they didn't like my blogging. The second reason is I've been more critical with ex-ex-gays and their failure to take action against the very movement they've help to create.

And the reason why Besen is now hatemongering is because he knows I know that if he does put Exodus and their affiliates out of business, then he becomes irrelevant too. And he doesn't want anyone to know that fact.

Whether people still want to be ignorant with that fact is fine with me.

I got nothing to gain from calling out a hypocrite and a poser. Wayne Besen, on the other hand, has a lot to lose from this. Because the notion that he is trying to save the Ugandan LGBT population from being labelled criminal sex offenders is by way of law is a farce.


after reading the posts by Wayne Besen & Charles Merrill, and looking at the links they posted regarding David Nahmod and Nelson Garcia, it's painfully obvious that Nahmod and Garcia are "stalking" people who deliberately provoke them.
What a sick community this is.

Wayne Besen | March 11, 2010 11:49 AM

Nelson G:

Do you have any idea how ludicrous you sound? You say I don't really want the ex-gays to go out of business. But, consider the evidence:

** I wrote a book Anything But Straight: Unmasking the Scandals and Lies Behind the Ex-Gay Myth. It took several years of research.

** Photographed the leader of Exodus, John Paulk, in a gay bar

** Revealed, along with attorney Michael Hamar, that Michael Johnston, the founder of National Coming Out of Homosexuality Day was having sex with men he met on the Internet.

** Brought to light that therapist and author Richard Cohen had been kicked out of the American Counseling Association.

** Exposed JONAH leader Arthur Abba Goldberg a few weeks ago as a bond trading con artist.

** Helped bring Wade Richards, of the Savior's Alliance for Lifting the Truth (SALT) out of the closet.

** Created the first ex-gay survivors booklet "Finally Free" while serving at HRC

** Founded Truth Wins Out in 2006 - and have protested nearly every major ex-gay conference since.

** Produced a video with an ex-gay survivor last year that got a Michigan therapist kicked out of Exodus' network.

** The list goes on and on.

Given the evidence that I'm actually making ex-gay activists lose their jobs, what are your groundless charges based on? What is your evidence?

In terms of Uganda, I conceived and helped organize (with other organizations that you routinely bash) the American Prayer Hour, to draw attention to the situation in Uganda.

Perhaps, you were incarcerated, thus unaware of my work. However, it seems that you simply have a personal vendetta and lash out without the substance to bolster your endless angry accusations.

Finally, I have listed just a few of the things that I have worked on for the community. Sometimes I have had increible success. Other times I have come up short. But, each day I get up and try to create a more just world.

But, what have you done? What have you accomplished or earned that gives you the moral authority to sit there and so harshly judge basically every LGBT organization and activist? Exactly, what have you contributed other than a sparsely read blog - where you basically complain about people?

Nelson G, may I suggest that you take a deep breath, lighten up and try doing something positive for a change?

Continuously savaging LGBT activists and organizations may make you feel good. But, it is not helpful. Have you ever considered a more constructive role in the movement?

I have emails on file which prove that Besen's sidekick, Michael Airhart, goes out of his way to "inform" people of Garcia's past and exclude him from the movement. I'm willing to produce those emails in a courtroom. I'd still be on good terms with TWO had I gone along with this.
So why do we hate each other so much?

Wayne Besen | March 11, 2010 1:37 PM

Mr. Nahmod:

I begged you on several occasions (including on this site) to leave me and people associated with my organization alone. We want nothing to do with you.

Yet, you e-mailed me this morning and said:

"If you really want me to go away, are you willing to retract your stalker claims?"

First, you are admitting in this e-mail that you are harassing me. Second, you are claiming that you won't "go away" and will continue your obsessive campaign unless I give in to your demands. Your fixated and disturbing behavior proves you are stalking - or at the very least a perpetual irritant.

You question how you could stalk from across the country? Well, you appear to be harassing your ex-boyfriend Beecher in Arizona, for one (and the family he lives with). And the reporter from the blog exposing your unnerving history.

You are, if not technically stalking, harassing me and Michael Airhart on the East Coast via phone, Internet sites, e-mail, etc. And, when physically able, you were able to allegedly harass the people at that Rainbow grocery store in San Francisco.

As you can see, there is a disturbing pattern.

This also includes the potentially libelous accusations you made on tape about the Arizona couple. I have never published this videotape for precisely that reason.

Mr. Nahmod, I am asking kindly, once again, that you please cease and desist from your creepy campaign and obsession with me and my organization.

I'd be happy to never speak to you again. Never write your name in print. Avoid any discussion of you in the future...If you would kindly agree to the same terms. We can end this now, once and for all, if you desire.

But, you seem like you are just unwilling and unable to cut ties and move on. You say that you are for a nice LGBT community and here is your chance to prove it.

I prefer not wasting my time defending myself or Truth Wins Out from your unsubstantiated and calumnious assaults.

Seriously. No when to say when. Move on. We let you go last year as a volunteer blogger - and it is clear that you have an axe to grind. But, really, you can put down that axe any time now. It does you no good to harbor and express such anger.

Finally, we also extend the same offer to Nelson G. We have no interest in him, nor his life, but he does not seem to understand this. We also hope he will consider moving on.

Thank You,

Wayne Besen
Truth Wins Out

Sorry Wayne, but the lies need to stop first.
I last set foot in Rainbow Grocery in 2005. I never go there, never call them, never mention them. It's others, like you, who keep bringing them up.
2005 is also the last time I contacted Beecher's housemates, who still send me abusive taunts~~I have dozens of these on file. Earlier this week, they called me a "zionist fool."

In your earlier post, Wayne, you freely admit to having "warned" other organizations about me. You can't do something like that and expect no response.
When you apologize for having done this, when you admit that I indeed have credible documentation RE: my claims, I will gladly bury the hatchet and wish you well.
I might even give your next book a good review, as I did to your first book.

But I will not continue putting up with "stalker" accusations from people who lie about their own behavior.

The apology must be public.
And yes, leave Nelson Garcia the fuck alone. His past is what it is, but neither of us have ever met him and his past has nothing to do with us.
If people let him be he'd have nothing to complain about.

Isn't this sad, everyone?
This is how gay activists have been behaving for decades, and that's why we have yet to achieve real equality.

Wayne Besen | March 11, 2010 5:47 PM

Dear Mr. Naymod:

First, I want to clarify that I've actually never contacted any LGBT organizations to discuss you. What I meant to say was that if they do ask me about your Beecher story, I will warn them not to pursue it. I do not think you are a credible source. I do not believe your story. I think that Beecher is in better hands where he currently resides.

Second, there will be no apology public or private. You do not deserve one. You are an obsessive who fixates on people, in my view. You are a "Fatal Attraction" type and I strongly stand by my words.

Third, I do not appreciate your threats. I have begged you - publicly on this website, for the record - to part ways amicably. Instead, you have elected not to do so. I still hope you see the wisdom in letting go and moving on with your life. My offer still stands. I have no desire to argue with you any further. I sincerely hope we never speak or cross paths again. I am not sure how I can make myself any clearer.

Fourth, you complain about the LGBT community not being nice. But when I offered an extended hand in peace, you met it with a "hatchet". You certainly do not practice what you preach.

Fifth, I have never (before the postings in the comments section) publicly disparaged you. Never written about you (or Nelson) on my websites (yet). I have never even discussed you with anyone outside my organization. Let the record stand that it is you who initiated, instigated and persists with your negative, attacks. It is you who brought my name into this conversation on this website and others, such as Nelson's. This public conversation is 100% you and your doing alone. I had no interest and have no interest in either praising you, nor condemning you. And the same goes for Nelson. As I stated, I just wish you would leave me and others who work with my organization the hell alone. That is all I ever asked. Yet, you have seem unable to comply with this basic request and keep pestering and harassing us.

Finally, if you continue the baseless, bitter and unsupported attacks, we will be forced to respond. We will not let your misinformation stand. Nor will we silently put up with your ongoing abusive and pathological behavior. You should really seek professional help, in my opinion.

Now, good luck. Have a good life. And I pray to God I never hear from you again.

Wayne Besen

Wayne Besen | March 11, 2010 5:48 PM

Dear Mr. Naymod:

First, I want to clarify that I've actually never contacted any LGBT organizations to discuss you. What I meant to say was that if they do ask me about your Beecher story, I will warn them not to pursue it. I do not think you are a credible source. I do not believe your story. I think that Beecher is in better hands where he currently resides.

Second, there will be no apology public or private. You do not deserve one. You are an obsessive who fixates on people, in my view. You are a "Fatal Attraction" type and I strongly stand by my words.

Third, I do not appreciate your threats. I have begged you - publicly on this website, for the record - to part ways amicably. Instead, you have elected not to do so. I still hope you see the wisdom in letting go and moving on with your life. My offer still stands. I have no desire to argue with you any further. I sincerely hope we never speak or cross paths again. I am not sure how I can make myself any clearer.

Fourth, you complain about the LGBT community not being nice. But when I offered an extended hand in peace, you met it with a "hatchet". You certainly do not practice what you preach.

Fifth, I have never (before the postings in the comments section) publicly disparaged you. Never written about you (or Nelson) on my websites (yet). I have never even discussed you with anyone outside my organization. Let the record stand that it is you who initiated, instigated and persists with your negative, attacks. It is you who brought my name into this conversation on this website and others, such as Nelson's. This public conversation is 100% you and your doing alone. I had no interest and have no interest in either praising you, nor condemning you. And the same goes for Nelson. As I stated, I just wish you would leave me and others who work with my organization the hell alone. That is all I ever asked. Yet, you have seem unable to comply with this basic request and keep pestering and harassing us.

Finally, if you continue the baseless, bitter and unsupported attacks, we will be forced to respond. We will not let your misinformation stand. Nor will we silently put up with your ongoing abusive and pathological behavior. You should really seek professional help, in my opinion.

Now, good luck. Have a good life. And I pray to God I never hear from you again.

Wayne Besen

Wayne Besen | March 11, 2010 6:06 PM

Dear Mr. Naymod:

First, I want to clarify that I've actually never contacted any LGBT organizations to discuss you. What I meant to say was that if they do ask me about your Beecher story, I will warn them not to pursue it. I do not think you are a credible source. I do not believe your story. I think that Beecher is in better hands where he currently resides.

Second, there will be no apology public or private. You do not deserve one. You are an obsessive who fixates on people, in my view. You are a "Fatal Attraction" type and I strongly stand by my words.

Third, I do not appreciate your threats. I have begged you - publicly on this website, for the record - to part ways amicably. Instead, you have elected not to do so. I still hope you see the wisdom in letting go and moving on with your life. My offer still stands. I have no desire to argue with you any further. I sincerely hope we never speak or cross paths again. I am not sure how I can make myself any clearer.

Fourth, you complain about the LGBT community not being nice. But when I offered an extended hand in peace, you met it with a "hatchet". You certainly do not practice what you preach.

Fifth, I have never (before the postings in the comments section) publicly disparaged you. Never written about you (or Nelson) on my websites (yet). I have never even discussed you with anyone outside my organization. Let the record stand that it is you who initiated, instigated and persists with your negative, attacks. It is you who brought my name into this conversation on this website and others, such as Nelson's. This public conversation is 100% you and your doing alone. I had no interest and have no interest in either praising you, nor condemning you. And the same goes for Nelson. As I stated, I just wish you would leave me and others who work with my organization the hell alone. That is all I ever asked. Yet, you have seem unable to comply with this basic request and keep pestering and harassing us.

Finally, if you continue the baseless, bitter and unsupported attacks, we will be forced to respond. We will not let your misinformation stand. Nor will we silently put up with your ongoing abusive and pathological behavior. You should really seek professional help, in my opinion.

Now, good luck. Have a good life. And I pray to God I never hear from you again.

Wayne Besen

david alex nahmod | March 11, 2010 11:11 PM

As a willing participant in this thread, Mr. Besen can hardly claim that I'm stalking him. If he wants me to go away, he must at least meet me halfway.
The lies about me must stop

Wayne, if you can meet me halfway, I'll forgo the apology and walk away.
Are you, and Michael, willing to offer this answer to anyone who asks you about my story:
We no longer work with David. Look at his documents and judge for yourself.

Are you further willing to instruct Michael to NEVER dredge up Nelson's past again?

If you can do those two things, we have a deal.

Now, how about someone offer a response to the original question posed by the author of this thread?

david alex nahmod | March 13, 2010 4:01 AM

I just found out that more than one month ago, Wayne Besen posted stalker accusations towards me at Truth Wins Out.
TWOs Evan Hurst, who I've never contacted, is backing those claims up.
Truth Wins Out is a hate group that seeks to hurt gay people and enable the religious right.
When are we going to demand better of our advocacy groups?

david alex nahmod | March 19, 2010 11:06 AM

OWI see that Mr. Besen has retreated to the Cowards's Corner.
Here's more info for everyone;
I've interviewed two gay men.
One's lived with HIV for about 20 years. He was taunted for his "gross" appearence by another gay man.
The other lost his partner to a heart attack. Two days later, the survivor was so rudely treated at New Leaf, a gay counselling center, he almost committed suicide. Both of these men will speak up if approached and I have their contact info.

I have an email on file from Wayne Besen in which he refers to both men as losers.
But make no mistake about it: Besen is hardly the only "equality advocate" who treats people like this.

david alex nahmod | March 20, 2010 12:55 PM

It's now nearly 24 hours since I posted about Ken, the gay gentleman with AIDS who was taunted for his "gross" appearence by another gay man.
Not a single person here, or elsewhere in the gay blogosphere has come forward to express concern for Ken.

Whatever faults Nelson Garcia or myself may have, whatever mistakes we may have made in our lives, neither of us have ever sunk so low as to torment or ignore a person with AIDS.

david alex nahmod | March 20, 2010 12:56 PM

It's now nearly 24 hours since I posted about Ken, the gay gentleman with AIDS who was taunted for his "gross" appearence by another gay man.
Not a single person here, or elsewhere in the gay blogosphere has come forward to express concern for Ken.

Whatever faults Nelson Garcia or myself may have, whatever mistakes we may have made in our lives, neither of us have ever sunk so low as to torment or ignore a person with AIDS.

david alex nahmod | March 23, 2010 1:11 PM

Yesterday, a five year nightmare ended.
After a 2 1/2 hour intake and session, Dr. Morrison of Chinatown North Beach Mental Health Services here in San Francisco verified that I am not bipolar, and never was.
After examining some of the abusive taunts sent to me by "LGBT Equality Advocates", the doctor agreed that I had been intentionally provoked into having what appear to be manic episodes.

The doctor expreseed her disgust at the behavior of the LGBT community. She actually cringed while looking at my documents.

Among those who are responsible for inflicting this damage are the people running Truth Wins Out.
I hope to go before a judge ASAP to see what can be done to stop TWO, and other organizations like them, from harming others.

Since TWO, and my ex's housemates, now use Nelson Garcia's past as a weapon against me, I will also ask the judge to remove the info about Nelson from the web.

Unless the entire community owns up to how we behave and treat each other, we will not achieve equality this century.
As things now stand, we're no different and no better than the teabaggers.

david alex nahmod | April 8, 2010 11:19 AM

One final comment from me, not because I expect a response, but because I know people will see this.
I saw the doctor again. It was again verified that I am not bipolar and never was--that what appeared to be "manic episodes" were in fact a bad if perectly human reaction to the shocking levels of abuse that were hurled at me by people claiming me to be gay activists.
I lived with that false diagnosis for five years thanks to what passes for normal behavior in the gay and lesbian community.

As per the advice I got from the police RE: this development: I will be filing assault charges against those who left a written record of how they were treating me. I will request that the police report be forwarded to the DAs office, and I will sign a release so that the police and DA can have access to my medical records.

I have already filed a complaint against one organization with the NY State Attorney General.
These abuses must stop.

I suppose things could have been worse for me. I could have been Ken, the gay man with AIDS who was taunted for his "gross" appearence by another gay man.
Or I could have been one of the thousands and thousands of gay men who respond to these abuses by dulling their pain with crystal meth.

I just read at the Michael's Gay Thought Blog that Michael, a co-founder of Queer Rising Boston, was leaving that organization thanks to all the anger and hate he was seeing from other gay people!
I'm supposed to be proud of things like that, or of what was done to me and Ken?

Under these conditions, I cannot justify asking people to support gay rights.

david alex nahmod | April 9, 2010 11:19 AM

the people who keep accusing me of stalking them are never honest about their own behavior.
At the comments section of Phoenix New Times and San Francisco Weekly, there is a combinef total of over two hundred troll posts about me, accusing me of stalking, pedophilia, as well as sarcastic comments about my now false bipolar diagnosis.
There are also taunts about my ex and I not being together.
I have also gotten over one hundred emails which say the same things.
the people who accuse me of stalking all do things like that, and lie about it.
But I have these items safely archived, and this is all traceable.
Typical of what I've been subjected to is the exchange between myself and Wayne Besen in this very thread:
I tell Wayne that I'll walk away from him if he agrees to stop discrediting me.
He responded by comparing me to the Glenn Close character from the film Fatal Attraction.

It's bad enough to get this kind of abuse from anti-gay Christians. But with the gay community making this kind of behavior it:s social norm on top of that, is it any wonder that I appeared "manic" or that so many of us abuse Crystal Meth?
Now, with verification from my doctor, I can prosecute those who sought me out to provoke me, and I will.
As for Southern Poverty Law Center and the NY State AG, two other gay men have co-signed that complaint with me.
People want some something better than this.

david alex nahmod | April 9, 2010 11:20 AM

the people who keep accusing me of stalking them are never honest about their own behavior.
At the comments section of Phoenix New Times and San Francisco Weekly, there is a combinef total of over two hundred troll posts about me, accusing me of stalking, pedophilia, as well as sarcastic comments about my now false bipolar diagnosis.
There are also taunts about my ex and I not being together.
I have also gotten over one hundred emails which say the same things.
the people who accuse me of stalking all do things like that, and lie about it.
But I have these items safely archived, and this is all traceable.
Typical of what I've been subjected to is the exchange between myself and Wayne Besen in this very thread:
I tell Wayne that I'll walk away from him if he agrees to stop discrediting me.
He responded by comparing me to the Glenn Close character from the film Fatal Attraction.

It's bad enough to get this kind of abuse from anti-gay Christians. But with the gay community making this kind of behavior it:s social norm on top of that, is it any wonder that I appeared "manic" or that so many of us abuse Crystal Meth?
Now, with verification from my doctor, I can prosecute those who sought me out to provoke me, and I will.
As for Southern Poverty Law Center and the NY State AG, two other gay men have co-signed that complaint with me.
People want some something better than this.

Alfonso Chinea | April 21, 2010 2:49 PM

Like Turth Wins Out's Wayne Besen & Michael Airhart, I personally examined David Alex Nahmod's documentation and belive it to be authentic.
I'm shocked to see that one year later, Wayne Besen would publicly announce that a story he reported and verified to be true is false. I'm also shocked that Mr. Besen would now publicly admit to going out of his way to discredit Mr. Nahmod.

One year ago, I expressed interest in writing for the Truth Wins Out site. At that time, Wayne Besen & Michael Airhart began sending abusive emails to Mr. Nahmod, which were c'ccd to me, even though I had nothing to do with their dispute.
When I asked why these items were being sent to me, Michael Airhart began hurling accusations at me.
This is not the sort of behavior I expect from equality advocates.

I feel that Mr. Besen & Mr. Airhart were deliberately trying to provoke a rise out of Mr. Nahmod so they could prove how "crazy" he is.

The moderators here can see my email and are welcome to contact me for verification.

I had posted this coment last week but it got deleted. I don't know why. Like the above poster, you can see my email. You can contact me directly if you think I'm a troll.

My name is Joe. I know David Nahmod and his ex Beecher personally. I consider both of them to be friends. Truth Wins Out knows that David's story is true because they interviewed me over the phone about it. When Beecher's mother passed, his anti-gay housemates stopped me from contacting him to express my condolences. Not only did Truth Wins Out talk to me on the phone, they posted a signed statement from me at their website. After all that, I'm disgusted to see the lies and hate posted by Wayne Besen on this page.

Nahmod was discontinued as a writer for Truth Wins Out due to his inabiity to abide by a reasonable code of conduct which I repeatedly reminded him of:

http://www.truthwinsout.org/blog/2010/04/8480/

Joe Integlia's notarized letter was one of the few solid pieces of evidence that David ever submitted. But by itself, the letter was peripheral and circumstantial, and I told David that.

In fact, I told Nahmod many times, in friendly phone calls and e-mails over many months, that more solid evidence would be needed to prove his case -- and that his case had repeatedly been damaged by the sort of bitter and irrational rants that he demonstrated right here on this page. Nahmod has subjected many people -- activists, reporters, ex-friends, and readers -- to rants like the one above; this exemplifies why his ex-partner left him in the first place.

As David knows, i was busy last year buying a home, moving, and grieving the death of a friend. I had little spare time for blogging -- and even less time to pursue some vast imaginary vendetta against Nelson Garcia. I was told about Nelson Garcia by another writer, and I warned two or three blogs to be wary of his comments; I used the Wikisposure article as evidence. Garcia and Nahmod then irrationally accused Wikisposure of being a pawn of antigay activist "Porno" Pete LaBarbera. I make no apologies for warning a couple of blogs about Garcia, who remains a Level One sex offender and a poseur -- he is anything but a gay-rights activist.

By and large, Nahmod refused to provide reliable evidence to TWO, and instead harassed potential witnesses. The details are at the link above.

I feel sorry for the many people who have been let down by Nahmod's persistent efforts to destroy his own credibility.

Lourita Butler | May 1, 2010 8:37 PM

I have personally examine David Nahmod's evidence. It's quite convincing and proves that his ex's friends have engaged in mail fraud. I have also seen written documentation which prove that David's accusers have deliberately provoked him and lied about their actions. There's quite a bit of this.As a long time gay rights supporter, I don't think that a civil rights group like Truth Wins Out has any business warning gay people about other gay people. What horrible, unethical conduct.I will therefore be filing an ethics complaint against Truth Wins Out this week. We need real advocates, not liars and hatemongers.

Any more comments about David Nahmod or Truth Wins Out or any of it will now be deleted. It's completely off topic and there's no one reading these but those of you dedicated to arguing the same shit over and over and over again. Enough. Take it elsewhere.

Alfonso Chinea | May 4, 2010 2:11 PM

This comment has been deleted for violation of the Terms of Service.

While arguing about an opinion or idea is encouraged, personal attacks will not be tolerated. Please be respectful of others.

The editorial team will delete a comment that is off-topic, abusive, exceptionally incoherent, includes a slur or is soliciting and/or advertising.

David Alex Nahmod | May 5, 2011 9:03 PM

I would like the moderators here to know that Wayne Besen & I communicated privately about a week ago and settled our differences amicably.
And I must say, it's a relief and a joy to NOT hate each other so much.
I would therefore like to respectfully request that all posts from myself, Michael Airhart & Wayne Besen be deleted from this thread.
It doesn't make our movement look good to be attacking each other in public.

I wish Wayne & Michael the best.

I also wish to publicly renounce my past support for Nelson Garcia of NG Blog. I was once willing to give Nelson a 2nd chance because he misled me to believe that he had remorse about his criminal past.
I came to realize that Nelson Garcia has no remorse at all--in fact, Garcia was deliberately inflaming the hostilities between Mr. Besen and myself.
I regret having affiliated myself with Nelson Garcia and have certainly learned from that blunder.

Thank you & peace to all.