Bil Browning

OWS: Ashley Love Strikes Again

Filed By Bil Browning | October 25, 2011 5:00 PM | comments

Filed in: Politics, Transgender & Intersex
Tags: Ashley Love, notorious troublemaker, Occupy Wall Street, transgender activists

Over on n+1 there's a report out of Occupy Wall Street and the problems they've had with a group of drummers who've been irritating other protestors and city officials with the noise at all hours. Thumbnail image for AshleyLoveLGBTPOV.jpegBuried in a missive about the ongoing negotiations with the drummers is this blind item about a transgender woman (emphasis mine) who's bogging down the process so much that " the board's trust in the demonstrators to police themselves and keep their word may be broken beyond repair."

Unfortunately there is one individual who is NOT a drummer but who claims to speak for the drummers who has been a deeply disruptive force, attacking the drumming rep during the GA and derailing his proposal, and disrupting the community board meeting, as well as the OWS community relations meeting. She has also created strife and divisions within the POC caucus, calling many members who are not 'on her side' "Uncle Tom", "the 1%", "Barbie" "not Palestinian enough" "Wall Street politicians" "not black enough" "sell-outs", etc. People have been documenting her disruptions, and her campaign of misinformation, and instigations. She also has a documented history online of defamatory, divisive and disruptive behavior within the LGBT (esp. transgender) communities. Her disruptions have made it hard to have constructive conversations and productive resolutions to conflicts in a variety of forums in the past several days.

Gothamist, however, fills us in on who the "disruptive" woman is. You guessed it. Ashley Love.

Most everyone agreed that it should be limited to 2 hours a day, preferably from 4 p.m. to 6 p.m. during rush hour. These were the terms agreed to by the committees and de facto OWS spokesman Han Shan. Yet the loud outbursts during the meeting by one woman were a portent: some drummers wouldn't be reasoned with.

This protester, who identifies herself as Ashley Love, shouted "four hours!" several times while CB 1 members were speaking, to the anger and frustration of her peers sitting around her. One tugged on her sleeve, pleading her to stop before creating another impasse.

Ashley has a history of vulgar and defamatory disruptions at LGBT or liberal conferences and gatherings - most recently after trying to get everyone pissed off at Don Lemon after she crashed a panel discussion he was moderating. Lemon tweeted later to trans folk angry after only seeing Ashley's severely edited version of the confrontation: "oh. u must've heard about unstable lady who crashed the panel. she kept attacking us for no reason. hope she gets some help."

At this year's Creating Change conference Ashley caused a scene during a panel discussion I was on after calling Mike Rogers "a liar" for saying that not "all trans women" were angry over the film Ticked Off Trannies With Knives and his statement that it is never possible to say "all" people for anything. She also referred to transgender women as "men who wear dresses" as versus transsexual women who've had gender reassignment surgery and followed Rogers around the conference flipping him off behind his back.

With friends like these...

Reports out of Occupy Wall Street say the police may try to force protestors out of Zuccotti Park over the drummers who won't respect other people's wishes for some quiet time. The drumming ended last night at 10:30pm and started again early this morning.


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Nothing Ashley has ever done, may have done or may not have done justifies your dismissiveness toward issues some consider very significant which seem to be an obstacle to attainment of your political goals. As I recall, Ashley handled herself very well in front of Don Lemon at the NAACP conference. I just watched the video. She spoke very well and made a distinction between transsexual and transgender because one should be made. I can get very upset about noise pollution but what you continue to do is erase important distinctions the way Lemon did in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TXXkSEBP8k
Nothing Ashley or any other person of transsexual history has done makes Lemon's dismissiveness or your dismissiveness any less offensive.

The distinction she makes between transsexual and transgender is that her definition of "transgender" is a strawman construction of the worst stereotypes of trans people she can imagine and her definition of "transsexual" is people who agree with her.

A trans person is someone who knows he or she has been given a body that is inconsistent with his or her true gender. Transgenders and transexuals can vary from my friend who used to cross dress but when she quit using drugs she had to stop because it is a trigger for her addiction to another who has transitioned and passes as female so well that someone in a restaurant asked if she was United Pentecostal (an extremely conservative fundamentalist denomination) because she had on no make up and her hair up in a PhD (Pentecostal hair do) because it was very hot weather, (but has had no surgery) to those who know they are women but rarely drag and are happily married to understanding women and not gay at all,just women in men's bodies, to the stage girls who stay in butch when not performing to the cross dressers---men who wear dresses but may or may not be gay. It is a broad identity and no one who is part of it should ever shun anyone who claims the identity because that weakens the power of the entire group just as if the gay community excluded African-Americans or Asians. Miss Ashley seems to have an identity problem of her own just like men who loudly protest about the "sinfulness" of homosexuality but are in the WALL. (I have only recently heard that term. It may be not be used anywhere but Baton Rouge but refers to gay people who are so far into the closet that there is no door.)

Edith, I categorically disagree with you.

Ashley's own actions are the specific reason she is so readily dismissed.

Her approach is consistent, but it also consistently fails -- not because she is trans, but because of her own words and actions.

That she's managed to anger the OWS protesters -- who generally have a very different approach to such stuff than Bil or Don Lemon and include many other trans people and other persons of color -- just demonstrates that it is not the transness, in this case, nor is it the blackness.

It is the person.

Antonia,

you said,

"Edith, I categorically disagree with you."

I am sure you will enjoy plenty of support for taking the position you do, which is the point, a point which goes way beyond anything Ashley Love has or hasn't done.

As the woman in the video who said she went to Spellman remarked, "no one even knew what the word 'transgender' meant or that some people have SRS." GLAAD has done its job as have many other LGBT bloggers by repeating the the mantra over and over and over and over transgender, transgender, transgender rendering someone's sex reasignment surgery nothing more than a cosmetic accessory like a body piercing or a tattoo. Nice work. You all control the message as effectively as most of the media outlets in this country do. "blind item about a transgender woman (emphasis mine)" I don't care if Ashley Love Sousa killed her own daughter and buried her in the back yard, I don't think she deserves those kinds of barbs. As she pointed out to Lemon it's about a lot more than words.

Go ahead now and dismiss the way Lemon did by going yeah, yeah, yeah and rolling your eyes. I guess I should apologize for standing in the way of political progress. Sorry for the inconvenience.

I really dont get your position, edith.

I agree that Bil and Don Lemon and most gay men are pretty clueless when if comes to trans issues, and I also agree that TG/TS can be a useful distinction in many ways (though highly discriminatory in most).

What I dont get is your support (and Gina's) of Ashley Love. Yes, I believe in speaking the truth to power (though I am sure most gatherings of gay men would find the term 'power' applied to them to be very ironic at the least, based on their place in society at large). On the other hand, I feel there is a big difference between 'assertive' and 'aggressive', and I find Love to be *way* on the aggressive side. I despise her scorched-earth, black-and-white, demagoging approach to differences between transgender women and transsexual women. Honestly, if she weren't trans (and therefore the worst kind of man, as fat as they are concerned), she'd fit right in over at GenderTrender. So really, I agree with Shaed, above.

Carol,

I know you don't understand me. I don't understand you. I have had sex with plenty of men. They all enjoyed it, including the black chauffeur who wanted to take me back to Harlem with him and the pretty transvestite who told me "she" would never(emphasis mine) cut "her" dick off. I've also been married for thirty-seven years and been a very faithful spouse. Go figure that one out.

Well, congratulations on your sultriness, lol.

Yes, they didn't even label her as transgender, Bil did that all on his own.

As a transgender person, I totally dont get this divide between people who identify transgender and transsexual. I would love to transition, but life constraints wont allow me to. I do know that the harshest comments I've received have been from transsexuals asking me, "what I THINK I am". Really? Gee thats all kinds of kind, thanks.

We need to get over this divide and band together to win our rights. Cause there's no one way to be anything.

It's because we are putting people who are into cross dressing as a sexual fetish or part of an entertainment performance as well as those who are dressing somewhere in the spectrum other than what is stereotypical for someone's birth gender into the same group with those who have a bona-fide medical condition and are being treated for that medical condition through hormone treatment and in many cases, surgical procedures.

It would be like putting a person who lost their eyesight in one eye and wears an eyepatch in the same group with someone who is fully sighted and is just wearing an eyepatch just to express something.

By referring to someone with a transsexual or intersex medical history as "transgender", it would be like referring to the fully sighted person wearing an eyepatch as a member of the blind and partially sighted community.

Being transsexual is about commitment to a process. It means risking liver damage, diabetes and blood clots taking multiple medications. It means losing most functionality "downstairs". It means living a full time like subject to ridicule and ongoing discrimination. It's something we can't just switch away from when the seas get rough. For many, it also means risky and very invasive surgery.

When you think of it that way, now do you wonder why we don't want to be in the same group as those who get hard when wearing petticoats or pantyhose or who go out "en femme" on the weekends or when the wife is out of town?

One is social, the other is medical. Simple a that.

I agree. If you are transsexual you only have two choices from birth: transition or commit suicide. There is no middle ground. If a person can stand NOT to transition and hold off indefinitely, then I tend to believe that person isn't transsexual. That's my opinion and as such can be flawed. I don't deny that non transsexuals face similar problems and oppression - but only when they are "dressed up".

twinkie1cat | October 26, 2011 9:37 AM

Some people will do anything to have the spotlight and cannot work for the common good. She might be mentally ill. I don't know if this lady is such a troubled person but the group leaders need to examine the situation and see if she needs to be put on extinction (essentially ignored) but attacks on her own community and disruptive behavior is not going to accomplish anything. We once had to do this to a woman in our church who was running off new people and even causing sensitve members to quit. Extinction can be very effective but tedious. There have to be certain mentally strong and focused people assigned to monitor her to keep her engaged and distracted from inappropriate activities. She may need a special assignment, something she can do to contribute that will keep her from causing harm but will be useful and she can get attention for, which sounds like what she is craving. The attacks on her own community indicate she has a problem. Not every transgender as the means to or wants a physical sex change.

Extinction is a behavior modification technique common to special education.

> "mentally ill...such a troubled person...needs to be put on extinction...has a problem... special education"

The preceding comment is a defamatory personal attack and offensive to trans and gender diverse people who have been bashed and ostracized with these very stereotypes.

twinkie1cat | October 27, 2011 1:22 AM

I did not say that being transgender made Ashley mentally ill but that her reported behavior indicates that she might be and that she might need to be placed under behavioral restraint. The same behavior as has been described would be inappropriate if it came from any variety of gay or straight person and, according to the article, Miss Ashley has a history of it. I never said that her behavior was characteristic of transpeople.

> "I did not say that being transgender made Ashley mentally ill."

You didn't have to. You invoked a common negative stereotype that said it for you. If you disagree with Ashley's words or actions, you have every right to criticize her words or actions. I do, often. But you crossed a line when you attacked her as a person with the very same defamatory labels that are used by transphobic extremists (and transphobic mental health policymakers) to deny human dignity and civil justice to all trans people. Although Ashley has often attacked and misgendered other transsexual women who disagreed with her (including me), that does not justify bashing her or anyone else with stereotypes of mental defectiveness. In the historical context of these stereotypes, your comment was malicious and it was offensive to me. The only "behavioral restraint" that is appropriate here, would be for Bil to enforce the terms of service.

I wonder if this is down to interpretation? FWIW, I didn't get the indication that twinkie was being transphobic, or that they were calling all trans ppl mentally ill. My impression was that they were talking about Love in particular, and that their assessment was of her as a person, not as a trans person or trans woman. Perhaps I am wrong in this, though.

I also felt that what twinkie proposed was harsh, and kinda was shocked at such a suggestion. And I know I am stereotyping, and analyzing with little info, but I wondered in twinkie came from a traditional Asian culture?

One of the main reasons I looked at what twinkie said from a more open perspective, is I kinda had the idea that they were trans, too, based on their previous comment.

As I say, FWIW. :))

Kelley,
I would be hard pressed to believe that anyone associated with WPATH wouldn't be aware of or sensitive to the fact that the forced labelling of people Transgender against their will is causing severe distress for some people. I really believe at some point in the future WPATH will be held liable for their insensitivity and incompetence.
Lisa

> I really believe at some point in the future WPATH will be held liable for their insensitivity and incompetence.

Yes indeed. The label Gender Dyphoria is pernicious.

Well, it is correct to say that anyone who has been assessed by a mental health professional as having Gender Identity Disorder (or its new name Gender Dysphoria given to us by our friend Kenneth Zucker) is classified as being mentally ill.
It is perhaps a fine distinction between being classified as mentally by a psychiatrist (etc) as contrasted with being honestly and competently diagnosed as mentally ill. But it is a fine distinction. Some people would say that psychiatrists are honest and competent people, personally I beg to differ.
For what its worth, as a lay person, and having spent hours in meetings with Ms. Love, she did not strike me as being mental.

Om Kalthoum | October 27, 2011 4:43 PM

Twinkie, I feel safe in saying that this was one of the strangest comments I've ever read on any message board. Maybe you better try to refrain from long-distance diagnosis.

Gosh I didn't even know Ashley played the drums.

So what should we do Bil... have her stoned or hang her up by her thumbs? Tell her mommy what a bad activist she is? She must have really hurt you to make you spend the time to draft this sad little post and take up the space on your blog. Poor booboo.

Gina, first of all, I am not a supporter of Ashley or her disruptive techniques. I, also, do don't like her constant derogatory language to any part of the trans community, except with people like her. She hasn't been anointed as the one holy, last word on what trans people are to be defined. You define yourself, but we are divinely gifted to define anyone else.

Carol made a good statement, "I agree that Bil and Don Lemon and most gay men are pretty clueless when if comes to trans issues," which you seemed to allude to in your comment. I agree with both of you. When someone keeps making statements on how much he supports trans people and their issues, but turns on trans people the moment they bad-mouth HRC and Joe, is just what Carol said, "clueless." Support only when it's convenient is no support at all.

Ashley was disruptive yet again, but was there a reason to put it here on Bilerico? Someone was thinking they would be boosting their convenient support by telling this story. Too bad our words won't sink in.

I assume Bil posted this here b/c of his history with Love. However, that doesn't make him wrong on a lot of what he said. And the harshest criticism came from the n + 1 article. The thing is, this fits perfectly with my impression of Love. It seems to me that if she feels she is not getting her way, she loses sight of everything but getting her way, no matter the overall impact to the cause she is involved in. I feel she needs to think a bit more about other ppl (not even necessarily the ppl she feels are oppressing her) and a lot less about herself.

Whether you think Ashley is a total pill, pain in the ass, narcissist, whatever, think about what Bil did in this story... he quotes an ANONYMOUS SOURCE about her behavior. Would he quote an anonymous Christian source if someone said "oh, this gay man [fill in the blank] is a child molester."

Most of the time Bil and Ashley are on "the right side" (from my viewpoint). Sometimes, they do majorly eff'd behavior, but I certainly wouldn't post something Bil supposedly did based on an anonymous source because that would be a cheap hit. :(

Mmmmm, I have to disagree with you on this one. Comparing n+1 and Love to a Christian source and a gay man aren't even close. And this info quoted was vetted through someone at n+1, who trusted the source.

I get your point, though, it is at the bottom hearsay. And I have no doubt that Bil did this as part of the grudge match between him and Love. Really, this post shouldn't have been made. But I will admit that I intensely dislike Love, and felt pretty smug reading it, so I am not such a good person either. :)

Mmmmm, I have to disagree with you on this one. Comparing n+1 and Love to a Christian source and a gay man aren't even close. And this info quoted was vetted through someone at n+1, who trusted the source.

I get your point, though, it is at the bottom hearsay. And I have no doubt that Bil did this as part of the grudge match between him and Love. Really, this post shouldn't have been made. But I will admit that I intensely dislike Love, and felt pretty smug reading it, so I am not such a good person either. :)

I support Ashley because she pushes the conversation deeper. How easily we forget our history. Women's suffrage happened not just because of continued working within the system, but also because of radical loudmouths.

The Supreme Court of the United States ruled against woman’s suffrage in 1875.  Two figures emerged from this struggle, Carrie Chapman Catt, who used peaceful rallies, meetings and orderly demonstrations, and Alice Paul, who launched furious attacks on Woodrow Wilson, compared him to Kaiser Wilhelm, set fire to his speeches, chained herself to the White House fence, and was eventually imprisoned and tortured.

Who had more of an impact on public opinion?

In the spring of 1961, two hundred young black leaders meet in Raleigh, NC to talk about strategy for civil rights.  Much like HRC professes to speak for they gay community today, these black men were discouraged by the lack of progress of the NAACP.

What was formed was SNCC, Student Non-violent Coordinating Committee.  Two leaders from SNCC, Stokely Carmichael and John Lewis eventual parted ways in much the same way the Alice Paul and Carrie Catt did.
Lewis’s vision was integration, reform within the system, and voter education.  He became a national leader for integration and civil rights.  Carmichael eventually joined the Black Panthers and popularized the term “Black Power!”
Said Carmichael, “Yeah, I’m violent.  Somebody touch me, I’ll break their arm!” and “The honkies don’t have love, can’t spell nonviolence, don’t know what religion is all about, and you know they ain’t got rhythm.  But they have power, that’s what they have.  Power over our lives!   So we got to get it clear; the thing we need is power.”

Who had more of an impact on public opinion?

If outspoken figures like Ashley didn't push against "business as usual" in the "gay rights" arena, then no change would occur. We would continue our lugubrious trudge toward equality with transsexuals being at the end of the line.

Not to devolve into a bathroom argument, but she does have a point. Why, as a female identitifed and long since transitioned M2F, am I legally prevented from going to the womens' restroom because a male identified cross dresser wants to use the same bathroom in drag when they are out in public on their once a month "outing"? There is a distinction. That person gets to go home and live a "normal" life while I never change who I am from day to day and am subject to potential discrimination and harm perpetually - not just once a month.

Om Kalthoum | October 26, 2011 6:49 PM

It looks like you neglected to include that particularly odious Stokely Carmichael quote, "The only position for women in SNCC is prone."

That's because the purpose of my research into the topic of direct action versus passive action was not reveal misogyny of a particular subject. I also didn't mention that Alice Paul was a lesbian. Is it relevant? Can an individual be an asshole and still push an agenda forward? I tend to think so.

Ashley speaks for the rest of us.. those of us who are committed to the transition process. We do not wish to be lumped in with the crossdressers and fetishers in the so-called "transgender umbrella".

One major piece of misinformation in this article is that Ashley does NOT advocate completing surgery to meet her definition of transsexual. Those who are going through the medical process that could include surgery is considered a transsexual.

We are talking about the difference between a medical issue and a social issue. The so-called "equality" movement refuses to see that.

I can not speak on Ashley's specific conduct at everything going on with OWS since I am not there but I feel you are using this forum in an attempt to smear someone who is trying to speak for a group of people who have been hijacked by the mainstream "equality" agenda and placed into a one-size-fits-all approach when there are distinct differences between these two groups.

Yes, Ashley's a pistol.. But she's the squeaky gear in the overall engine of civil rights that represents one of the most oppressed minority groups in America.

Which part is incorrect? Michelle made many statements. Please share.

I did share. I stated it was factually incorrect.

I did not state *parts* of it were so. Nor did I cast any reflection on the propriety of the whole or parts of it.

I simply stated that it is factually incorrect.

Why it is so is either apparent, or one is functioning on assumptions and prejudices that dissuade one from it.

Gosh Toni did you find some wine? It is out of character for you to not address specific content with detailed quotes and walls of text. Was this incorrect "Ashley speaks for the rest of us.. those of us who are committed to the transition process. We do not wish to be lumped in with the crossdressers and fetishers in the so-called "transgender umbrella"."?

Or was it this "One major piece of misinformation in this article is that Ashley does NOT advocate completing surgery to meet her definition of transsexual."

Or perhaps this "I can not speak on Ashley's specific conduct at everything going on with OWS since I am not there but I feel you are using this forum in an attempt to smear someone who is trying to speak for a group of people who have been hijacked by the mainstream "equality" agenda and placed into a one-size-fits-all approach when there are distinct differences between these two groups."

You know I am a total Ditz so you need to keep it simple for me. With your vast intelligence and superior eloquence surely you can elaborate on what you meant in a way I can understand.

One selects one's battles based on the possible gain and the merit of the combatants, Deena.

There's no merit in the combatants here, nor is their likely any gain since the discourse has already happened.

I know you are not a ditz. I also know you like to stir pots. Vigorously. It is something we share in common.

This pot is quite stirred enough.

Or, since you request simpler terms:

Ain't my job to teach some folks shit I already done taught them, but they decided not to learn.

None of it is hard to figure out -- there is fact and there is supposition, opinion, and more. If people can't tell the fact from the opinion, then nothing I say is going to make their confirmation bias go away.

it is up to them to do that lifting.

Now you have gone and done it. How dare you infer that I have the intelligence to stir a pot. Isn't that a TOS violation? I suppose the next thing you will assert is that I need to surrender my RadFem membership card.

CassandraToday | October 29, 2011 2:14 AM

Wait a minute, Michelle. I'm "committed to the transition process," as you put it, and Ashley Love does not speak for me - not at all. If you feel she speaks for you, fine, just say so. But don't assume that she speaks for people you don't even know.

Bil all I can say is I look forward to the day when you run a post calling me disruptive. As for Monica and Carol you two are the pot calling the Kettle Black. Edith as always you rock and I agree with Gina on this one. All of you can try and label me or anyone else anything you want but don't go crying foul when anyone else stands against your political beliefs and harmful labels.The clock is ticking toward the end of Transgender tick tock tick tock.

first of all, drumming is the language of women, it is something that communicates, it is the language of the emotion of women, which Mary Daly sought in tortuous phrasing and on which Luce Irigaray opined. I am not at all surprised that there is drumming in OWS; it was present in protests in the 60's through the 80's. Good for Ms Love in standing up for it.
Secondly, in re: Ms Love and Mr Lemon--was that not in response to a statement or thesis by Mr Lemon that Trans women are actually gay men or subsumed under that group? If so, I can certainly understand her crashing that party.
Thirdly, Ms Love clearly identifies as transsexual and attatching another describer to her, one which she has publically declared does not apply to her is overtly disrespectful. Sigh...those gay men, always dissing women....

This is too funny. Don't the groups for men to 'get back in touch with their ancient masculinity' also sue drumming? I seem to have heard of 'drum circles' in this context? Also, do you actually know that the drummers were women, and were celebrating sisterhood? There don't seem to be that many women involved. My guess is that the drummers are mostly guys, but then I don't know either. It just makes me laugh how you project radical feminism right onto the situation.

Om Kalthoum | October 26, 2011 7:35 PM
"...Ms Love clearly identifies as transsexual and attatching another describer to her, one which she has publically declared does not apply to her is overtly disrespectful.

I hadn't noticed that Bil and the other quoted writers did that until you mentioned it. Even her supporters in this thread neglected to note this very basic fact (unless I missed it). Strange.

But what interests me more about this discussion and the inevitable fault lines that open up is that this should be about a personality disrupting (or not) a part of the Occupy Wall Street goings-on. Does Love present herself as Trans Anything in this setting? Or is she just another woman with a point of view?

For the transgender of course, it's all about the TransSomething. People aren't women or men to the transgender, they're trans. So how do they expect us to see them as anything other than "other"?

Britney Austin | October 27, 2011 12:28 AM

Ashley Love is not transgender. Ashley Love is a woman. Stop misgendering her against her will, Bil.

There was no misgendering.

Your assertion is harmful.

If to "mislabel" her is to "misgender" her then Bill did misgender her. Neither n+1 or the Gothamist used the adjective "transgender" (or trans anything) to describe Ashley. In fact, other than the use of the pronouns, "her" and "she" in these two publications, her gender is not mentioned. However, this article did create the phrase, "blind item about a transgender woman". It is well known that Ashley considers herself transsexual and not transgender so it is almost mean-spirited to refer to her as such.

Britney Austin | October 27, 2011 1:03 AM

There is an agenda at work and it is not a nice one.

Britney Austin | October 27, 2011 12:46 AM

Toni, maybe I read this wrong but I didn't see how Ashley Love's sex had anything to do with her views on drumming at Occupy Wall Street. Furthermore, she has stated on a number of occasions that she is transsexual or post-transsexual and that she is not transgender. She resists the label "transgender" because of the way it is typically applied as an umbrella term which often does result in a form of misgendering. Unless someone's transition is relevant to a particular topic, someone who is post-transition should simply be referred correctly to the sex that they transitioned to. In Love's case, that would be female.

Ashley's name on Facebook is now "Ashley Occupywallstreet Love." I get the impression from reading some of the postings on her wall that she is using OWS as way to promote herself. Whether a person agrees with Ashley or not, a lot of what she has done in the past (and now) is to force herself in the spotlight. You don't have to have a degree to see narcissism at work here.

She has made statements in the past where she has contradicted herself. I had a long phone conversation with her and she did it several times in that conversation. She has given ALL trans people a bad name wherever she goes. There are events put on by different organizations where she is not welcomed.

Ashley is young and has not being involved in any part of the community very long. She has potential, but Time will have to smooth off her rough edges. And, she maybe in for a Karma moment she won't want to see. But, since she has fallen into the "Susan Stanton Syndrome," her potential may never be realized.

Monica... um, I'm pretty certain Ashley transitioned before you did. If by 'community' you mean the community of older transitioners (of which I'm a member too) then the answer would be no... why would she be a member of that community? And whatever you think of Ashley (and I've had many issues with her in past as well) I do hope you understand the reason Bil posted this was because he wanted to have a big hoot watching a bunch of trans people sniping at one another over his post. So, congratulations, we're all making his day. :(

Gina, I think you are so right. He's probably having a great time watching trans people piss on each other. I smell popcorn. Hummmmm.

Well, personally, I feel that ppl have hardened into their positions, and noone is considering what anyone else is saying (due to a large degree to the defiant stance of many, though not all, of the participants, IMO), so I have stopped participatiing in the thread. I learned a lot, but at this point I am just seeing the same lessons repeated.

Monica, I could make a similar statement about you but instead of stating that you are young and may need more time, I could state that you are old and too indoctrinated in the status quo. I could state that, but I'm not doing so.

Some people have accused Mara Keisling of being ineffective. Some people have issues with Megan Stabler's recent marriage. My point is, we would be hard pressed not to find something we don't like about those that stand out. For instance, many think I'm an asshole because I have no issue stating an opposing viewpoint. However, I get things done. My philosophy is that you can "whine" or you can "do". I don't fight for equality to make friends, I do it to make change - I have plenty of friends.

As for the "OccupyWallStreet" moniker on Facebook, I have dozens of friends that follow this meme. Their middle name may show "Equality" or even "Halloween". I think it is a stretch to claim that they are all screaming out, "Look at me! Look at me!".

When you state she "contradicts" herself. I would be more inclined to think that she failed to articulate a position well enough initially or that maybe you misunderstood. However, we can all evolve and change our minds.

I personally don't know you well enough to to make any harsh criticisms of you, but last year I did offer you a valuable service to redo the pitiful TAVA website. Unfortunately, none of the TAVA board members could offer anything constructive, but they did debate for several days on whether or not to pay for your flight to Washington, D.C., which I thought was strange.

I spoke with you on the phone on more than one occasion and coupled with the online exchanges, I came to the conclusion that you were all too unorganized to focus on any one task for me to get anything done for your organization. I honestly thought you were partially deaf because in our phone conversations it was so painful to get a point across. You are also a person that I had to loudly talk over to get a word in. I'm really, really sorry to state that, but you and Ashley may have had the same communication problem.

By the way, I am deaf. I have to wear hearing aids, and sometimes there is feedback on phones. I find your comment insensitive and abusive about people with hearing loss in general and me in particular.

It is very telling that you would rather insult someone else's integrity rather because you couldn't hear them than disclose that you suffered from hearing loss before engaging in a telephone conversation.

Personally, I just now put 2 and 2 together. How in the hell is, ".. I honestly thought you were partially deaf..." insensitive and abusive? You really do have problems, the least of which is me.

The more I think about it, the more insulted I am that (1) you would even try to talk on the phone with another person without disclosing the limitations of conversation ability, (2) that you would get offended when YOU misunderstood someone else, and (3) where exactly to I address, "...people with hearing loss in general"?

Gee, now I have another person to add to my very short shit list. However, I'm sorry. The last thing I want to do is hurt another person.

Of course, this is off topic of drum circles, but more to the point of Ashley Love. It's from an email conversation with someone else this morning.

It's interesting that you mention, "...openly transgender appointee, Dr. Chloe Schwenke". In light of the snippet about Ashley Love yesterday and the perceived ongoing separatist movement to define transsexual outside of the transgender umbrella. I thought it was profound to find a quote from Chloe that is of a similar mindset as Ashley Love and Janet Mock:

"Selfishness and courage; oddly those are the two most common moral judgments made when people first hear that I am transgender, that I am now finally myself living the life of Chloe. For most transgender persons once fully aware of their situation, there is but one sensible choice and that is to transition to your true gender and become a transsexual."

Carla,

You quoted someone as saying

there is but one sensible choice and that is to transition to your true gender and become a transsexual."

There is a tendency to dismiss a great deal of what has been discussed here as a matter of semantics. I am certain that I was born transsexual. I didn't "transition to transsexual". Words are important because of their implications. I transitioned to female. I have a doctor's letter that says so. Over at GenderTrender they use an expression called "m2t" which is meant to imply that post surgical females are not female by describing post transsexual females as "males who transition to transsexual" insisting they are not female and that we are only men with what they call "surgiholes". This is what is so offensive of people who try to erase what it means to be transsexual and what it means to transition to male or female, t>m or t>f., and make our surgeries meaningless "surgiholes".

I could almost brush this all aside but the people at Bilerico, other blogs and various national organizations steadfastly refuse to acknowledge this. I believe the reasons for it is a refusal to accept what has been accepted by many state legislatures across the U S, even if Tennessee is not one of them(I know that's where you from. I was born there). This is being done for the sake of political expediency, sacrificing the needs of the minority in order to gather wider support, Equality is a deceptive word. When the distinction between male and female is made, equality often has different meanings. This is reflected in the proposed U S Employment Nondiscrimination Act as it was last submitted to congress in Section 8(a)(3) where post transsexual men and women are made equal to those of their birth sex rather than the sex they transition to.


Thanks for the info, Edith. I'd like to talk more sometime. Please click on my name which will take you to my website, from there click on "Contact Me" and send me your email address. You can always look me up on facebook as "Carla Jasmine Lewis" or http://facebook.com/manicsquirrel

@ Ginasf. I suspect Bil was doing a market test. I have noticed for quite some time that most threads on Bilerico get either zero responses or at best less than 10. But a thread with trans in the title draws comments like honey attracts flies. And the word sex is also a draw. So Jillian writes one recently with trans and sex in the title and suddenly there are 69 responses. And Bil found a way to do the market test subtly. He didn't put either sex or trans in the title. He put Love as in Ashley Love. Bil is smooth.


SHAME SHAME SHAME ON BIL.. I am not a fan of online bashing. It's so sad that this writer uses thier platform for such a negative and hurtful purpose. Whatever Ms. Love's tactics, effective or not, she has a right to express and fight for what she believes in. There is a difference between someone who identifies as transgender vs transexual. Both groups deserve equal protection under the law, as with any human being.

Sure, Ms. Love may be obnoxious and counter productive to some at times. Sure, she may be loud and disruptive in public, that tends to happens when people continue to be dismissive towards you.

CLEARLY, Ashley identifies as a transexual or a woman with a transexual medical history. To continue to refer to her as transgender is disrespectful and a blatant attempt to minimize the validity of her primary argument (that there is a difference between trasgender and transexual identities). As a white gay man, maybe you should educate yourself on the differences. "with friends like these".

And for the record,Im not an Ashley fan, but I am a fan of accurate reporting and representation.
Furthermore, Who are you to police her????
Who are you to say to the trans community "your representatives are getting in the way of dialog. The whole point of her being disruptive is partly because trans faces continue to be left out of the dialogs.

Im sure there are some nude gay beeches for you to blog about or the next gay pop star to rave about, or the latest celeb to come out the closet and all of a sudden is an expert on LGBT issues.

Note to writer: If you want someone who you consider to be annoying and disruptive, why dont you utilize your platform to inquire into thier issues. Maybe they just want to be heard. Maybe they have a point. But being dismissive, rude, arrogant and asserting your "white gay priviledge" to further oppress trans folk is only going to piss off others.

"A trans person is someone who knows he or she has been given a body that is inconsistent with his or her true gender".
@twinkie1cat
Not every trans desires to "transition" or even feel it is necessary. Society imposes these social constructions of what our bodies should look like.

Here is a link to an explanation by Ashley Love on why she supports the drumming.http://www.facebook.com/#!/notes/ashley-occupywallstreet-love/suppressing-the-occupy-wall-street-drummers-goes-against-what-i-thought-ows-was-/10150899001850074?notif_t=note_tag
I see Transgender labelling as misgendering because it always refers back to the birth sex. After reading what Edith posted about from gender trender concerning their M to T designation I have to say that I think Transgender is equivalent to calling someone M to T. I personally look at my being transsexual as sorta incorrect also. I see it more of a case of me going from question mark to female. Most everyone here has seen the medical studies we are intersexed and all we are doing is following the most natural course for ourselves by transitioning. There is no justfiable reason for slapping another incorrect label on us and forcing us into the LGBT political nightmare.

But Bil.. why do you insist on referring to Ashley as "transgender" when she has said time and again that she does not identify that way? Ashley and I are not under the same umbrella as crossdressing gay men and drag performers who have no intention to transition..

It is an accurate description, not a reflection of identity.

There is only one way to describe this article by Bil Browning, blatant anti-transsexual bigotry.

Also leaving aside the blatant transphobia of the article, Ashley Love has made clear on several occassions she is not transgender. Ashley Love is a woman, plain and simple.

As for what Ashley Love said at the meeting. She is 100% correct.

"If you are transsexual you only have two choices from birth: transition or commit suicide. There is no middle ground. If a person can stand NOT to transition and hold off indefinitely, then I tend to believe that person isn't transsexual"
Carla, what about pre- operative or non operative transsexuals. Having a surgery doesn't prove you are transsexual, what about folks who can not afford the costly procedure? There is a such thing as a medical and legal transition that doesnt involve surgery.

I'm honestly sorry for the misunderstanding. I didn't mention surgery, only transition.

Apparently being part of a minority allows for overt criticism of others but exempts you from the criticisms of your actions by others.

I think the major issue being missed here is the blatant transphobia on the part of Ms. Billie Brown. Is it not obvious that this post is not but a match tossed into the tinderbox of TeeGee "tran"-(insert flavor du jour), VS MEN and Women who suffered and were CURED of a medical malady.

All this "discussion" does is highlight the many Pseudo-psycho/social gender-babler's goof-ball theories inherent in the itentionally vague sex/gender conflation. Pure Jerry Springer entertainment. Just ask Dysonnance to define man/woman.

Oh please no Sam. You didn't just ask she who will not be named to define man/woman did you? What ever were you thinking?

You mean, "thinking", is required here? Darn1 I thought al that was required was a mindless parroting of the LGBTVQRVUIN Kumbya mantra.


Gosh Sam maybe you have a valid point. Should we flag down a mentally disabled naval retiree and request more bug juice?

Ah, so *you* are the one that summoned me.

Let's see...

The question is define man and woman, is it not?

If so, I need to know the context in which you would like it defined. Socially, legally, medically, biologically, or generally accepted? Each of them is different.

Or are you laboring under the mistaken idea that such terms are defined by a singular definition that stretches unchanged across all of those contexts?

Incidentally, your anti-intellectual viewpoint does you few favors.

Wow, it is amazing how two ppl can live in the same physical world but completely opposite emotional and intellectual worlds. Like me and right wingers, for example. Which is to say I completely disagree with everything you say in your post, other than the two facts you mention (Bil looking for dirt and his angry trans women' comment). And I add to Love's negative effects inspiring you to spew the same hate.

@Dana Lane, Thank you for sticking your neck out and getting banned for all of us who feel the same about the Gay TG Borg. You do transsexual women everywhere proud my sister... Kudos to you deary :)

Well, *I'm* transsexual, and she doesn't do *me* proud. Nor does Ashley Love. Just as the TS separatists feel that the LGB/TG doesn't speak for them, and tries to erase them, many TS women feel that the TS separatists try to erase them. For example, if you call yourself TG, or trans, or even don't viciously attack ppl who identify as TG, then you aren't a 'real' transsexual.

Of course, like the rad fems, you all see yourself as the true and pure, and feel that you are justified in your attacks. And like the rad fems, never see that you are stereotyping not just your avowed enemies, but also the members of your own group, through your defining principles and rhetoric (for example, the rad fems assuming that all true, natural women are a certain way; if men said some of the things about women that the rad fems do, the rad fems would be furious).

Carol, why "TS Separatist" and not "TS Liberationist" or decolonizationist?? A fetish crossdresser started the TeeGee movement. You are more than welcome to be a part of that community. Nobody is stopping you. And I could give a rats ass if I make you proud or not.

And I can't believe I am not banned yet! Wow...

Yes, I like 'TS Isolationist', that works for me!

And staying in your approach of us vs them and victimhood: My point about not being proud of you wasnt directed at you (I am sure you think no better of me than I do of you, whcih isnt much). Rather, it was for those of us who you are trying to erase, transsexuals who believe in a trans community and trans spectrum, and in working with others. Or, to put it in even more solidly in your kind of construct, I was 'fighting for liberation' from the str8 conservative transsexuals who have taken over everything.

Carol you are just as bad if not worse than most of the "TS separatist." You say one thing then do the other the native Americans have a saying for people like you "You speak with a forked tongue."

Carol the examples are all over the bilerico archives. Many of the people posting here know for a fact that I am active in lobbying for rights and have seen my name in the paper. What have you done? Just because i don't want to be silenced by the LGBT doesn't mean I don't support human rights.

Well, can you just pick one? Should be easy if they are all over the archives. Or are you just going to make claims you can't back up?

Bil is sitting back laughing his ass off right now. He knows there are a lot of TS under TG sellouts here who will jump up to defend him. Those same people probably spend more time posting in this article than they ever go out and actually work for things we need such as non-discrimination laws or insurance policy reform. They would rather make the "men in dresses" group feel warm and comfy. You know...the men who have oppressed women throughout history? How many of you TS under TG fight for women's rights?

Carol is a full-time Bilerico poster. I can't see she would ever have time to do anything else to actually help. Place your bets. Probably 10,000 comments.

Full-time poster. Hardly. It's just that I only post here, and am not all over the web stirring up trouble.

While you are on the subject, what are you doing in the world, other than teaming with rad fems to attack trans women, including transsexual women? (Do you ever actually read GenderTrender or Undercover Punk or RadFem Hub? Do you know they use your attacks against TG ppl against *all* trans women? Do you know they consider you worse, with your mangina, than even TGs?)

I never "teamed" with radfems. I had my work already in place and two feminists included my work in a document sent to the U.N. I have communicated with several of them on more than one occasion but that doesn't mean we are working together. Most of them wish I didn't exist (radfems,that is). The work I was doing was for protections for women and it just happened to fall in line with one of their agenda items.

Mhmmm. It sure seemed at the time like there was collaboration, but whatever. That wasn't my question. If you read closely, you will see that my question was 'what have you done to help the trans communities or women in general' (other than trying to make them safe from running into a transgendered in the restroom).

And even though I was not claiming, and have not claimed, that I am doing *anything* for the G and L communities, the trans communities, or women in general, yes, I have worked for all these, plus for ethnic minorities. But that is completely irrelevant to this discussion, IMO, for many reasons, not the least of which is that I am not out trying to speak for others or trying to be some visible authority on something. I am just speaking to something I see as dehumanizing, just like I would if some white supremicists showed up somewhere I frequented.

But whatever...yea, so...whatever.

One you already know about. That is being a participant in a document that was submitted to the U.N. that deals with protections of women. And it just so happens that transsexual women were included in that. The genderfucks/crossdressers/ifeellikebeingawomantoday crows are not included. Men should not use the same private spaces that young girls do.

Search for my name and University of Pennsylvania and you will find I have been in a battle with Penn (including the President Amy Gutmann) over changes in insurance policies for staff and faculty to remove the exclusion of triadic treatment for transsexualism. When this gets approved this is going to be a really big deal as most Ivy League universities look to see what others are doing. This could have a ripple effect that makes changes at many universities. So, what have you done? Besides post crap on Bilerico?

You already know how I feel about the first item.

As far as the second, way to go! Just engaging on this issue, even if it ultimately doesn't work out, is a huge contribution, IMO. I'm glad that you are doing it. :)

As far as this goes:

'So, what have you done? Besides post crap on Bilerico?'

I am not the one who made activism the criterion for being qualified to make a comment. And I don't feel any obligation to justify myself to you. And really, I have no interest in getting in some kind of credibility contest with you based on global impact. I feel good about what I have done, and as you said about me earlier, don't really much care about your opinion of me, esp given the nasty personal remarks you throw my way, and toward others with whom you disagree.

"You already know how I feel about the first item."
Are you against protections for women? Are you against women born transsexual (who are being treated for transsexualism) to be included in these protections? Don't forget the world is a bigger place than the 10 square yards that surrounds you. Steamrolling over the rights and protections of women by men show have part-time identity situations is not acceptable and should never be. Most TeeGees scream and yell about their rights but don't do anything or even care about womens' rights.

"I am not the one who made activism the criterion for being qualified to make a comment. "

Carol, YOU called out my own achievements but I suspect you were thinking I would come back with "not doing anything to help the community".

Are you against protections for women? Are you against women born transsexual (who are being treated for transsexualism) to be included in these protections? Don't forget the world is a bigger place than the 10 square yards that surrounds you. Steamrolling over the rights and protections of women by men show have part-time identity situations is not acceptable and should never be. Most TeeGees scream and yell about their rights but don't do anything or even care about womens' rights.

(laughs)

Classic right-wing strategy. It's like the 'when did you stop beating your partner. Of course I am for protections for women. I just don't see this whole 'men in dresses in the restroom' thing as one of the most important things in women's lives (how about acquaintance rape? domestic abuse? living in a sexist society?). Though you can never know other ppl's motivations, my take is that your 'protection for women' is more about gaining hedgemony over the 'TeeGees' (sounds like a pop group).

And yes, of course, I am for transsexuals. The funny thing is, the way I am trans is far more aligned with women like you than like TGs. I just hate stereotyping groups of ppl to the extreme worst cases, and actively demonizing them and working against their ability to live their lives. (I am guessing that part of your work with Penn is to make sure they understand the difference between *real* transsexuals, who deserve understanding and support, and those horrid 'TeeGees', who are the worst kind of vile perverts and sexual predators?)

"Carol, YOU called out my own achievements but I suspect you were thinking I would come back with 'not doing anything to help the community'".

This is why I asked, since you seemed to be dismissing my right to disagree with you based on credentials (but really, I kinda figured you weren't doing anything that really made a material impact for women, and that seems confirmed):

"Carol is a full-time Bilerico poster. I can't see she would ever have time to do anything else to actually help."

Why do you think GID protection laws are so hard to get passed? Maybe it is because they DO see "men" in dresses using the same restroom and showers that their young daughters are in as a problem. Keep including crossdressing "men" in the GID bills and see how far that gets you. How about teaching other men that SOME men wear dresses and still need to use the restroom. Everyone is floored when a GID public accommodations bill fails. Just floored, I tell you!

To what have the persons you note "sold out"?

In selling out, what gain did they have? (one cannot 'sell' without gaining something)

What evidence do you have that at the time you wrote your statement that Bil was sitting back and laughing his ass off?

Was that not a presumption on your point meant to cast a bad light on him because you have ill will towards him?

How do you know that Bil knows there are sellouts (as opposed to people who have not sold out) who will defend him?

Who are you accusing of selling out, and what is it they have sold?

What evidence do you have that the people commenting in support of Bl do not engage in work for things that "we" (interpreted as you, personally, and those who thnk like you as opposed to these sell outs who do not) need?

What is this group of men in dresses?

How does this group of what you term men in dresses not deserve equality, as you are describing?

Why is it that for a person who claims to have been banned, you are posting so much?

What do you mean by "TS under TG"? What ae the secific differences between these two groups, and why are they oppositional?

What evidence do you have that Carol is a full time Bilerico poster -- are you suggesting she is paid to do such, or that she's merely got the luxury of having the time to post here on an 8 hours per day basis (40 hours a week equals full time, correct?)?

What is wrong with posting here frequently as a commenter?

Why is posting frequently here as a commenter a bad thing?

Why is not working towards non discrimination or insurance policy reform?

Is it possible that since those areas often require specialized knowledge to be truly effective that people may not have any particular skills that enable them to do so?

Since you have a history of attacking people who do fight for such beause of the actions they take when doing so, wouldn't that mean that you actually have a problem with what you percieve as fruitless actions or that there is a group of people you do not feel deserve equal protections in those areas under th same rules that might cover you (and, thus, support inequality)?

The above questions are just a few of the reasons that I am not making longer posts in this thread, which should have already died, but is proving most entertaining.

Historically, when asked questions like the above, I am accused of "baiting", of using "trick questions", and similarly dismissive remarks, all the while not getting answers to such questions.

Incidentally, in answer to your questions: yes, and about the same percentage of other women in the world who do so.

Case in point.

Thanks for validating the hypothesis.

You betcha'...wink wink. Btw, I know you work very hard to help others and you get kudos for that.

Thankee.

We're tiling the bathroom at the new Residence today (putting in a new shower this week). And I'm recovering from a week with someone else not all that popular among your side of things who also works herself to the bone (she's not trans though).

Be glad to know that, true to my mission statement, I've even been helping out someone who has nearly identical views to yours.

Ashley Love Rocks in my book. She speaks for many of us transsexuals who are the minority of the LGB-t. And you are proof there's always some gay man or a crossdresser looking to bash what they could never understand. Get a life Mr Bilmbo!

I would like to thank you Mr Bilmbo for letting me know Ashley is doing things I need to focus on and maybe help out. You gay guys always seem to like messing in the TS world... Does you own life really suck that bad?

Britney Austin | November 1, 2011 2:15 AM

Identities or descriptions should be avoided in journalism when they are not relevant to the topic or individual being discussed. The problem with the term "transgender" that Ashley Love and so many others have with it is that it refers to an individual by their birth-assigned sex. If I am at a social function and I introduce a friend to someone--a friend who clearly is dressed in attire typically worn by women and presenting herself as a woman--and I describe my friend as a "transgender woman" or "trans woman" or even "transsexual woman" then such a statement carries the definition that this is a woman who used to be in the body of a man, may still be in the body of a man, but at least who used to live as a man. Why would I or anyone else do such a thing? Why are people so obessed with other people's past? I'd really like to know why people feel it is so necessary to constantly refer to others by their past and not by their present. People have the right to define themselves and choose their destiny and they have a right to leave their past behind at least where their past is completely irrelevant to their present. Referring to someone against that person's will by their birth-assigned sex through the use of "trans-" when describing their gender or sex is a form of sexism and sex stereotyping.

As I've stated before as an example, when a post-transition woman goes to a store, mall, or bank, she is treated, identified, and described as a woman. When she goes to work, school, church or temple she is treated, identified, and described as a woman. When she goes to an LGBT environment such as a bar or nightclub, charity event, pride parade, or similar function she is now labeled a "tranny." She may be lesbian or bisexual and thus would fit the L and B categories of LGBT but even if she had SRS and a birth certificate change 30 years ago, they still brand her with the label "tranny." That's not what I call freedom, diversity, and acceptance. It is what I call bigotry. And that is what Bil did in this article. And some of these public outings that the LGBT community has done such as what happened to Chrissy Polis can have severe consequences. It seems to me that the people behind this do not want to allow transsexuals to assimilate into mainstream society. I have witnessed these attitudes on multiple occasions. They don't want to see someone assigned male at birth successfully transition and become a respectable business woman living out a successful life as a woman. They want them to forever be a "tranny" and amount to nothing more than someone who turns tricks at a gay bar on the weekends. Ashley Love and plenty of others do not wish to be a part of this ghetto. They don't want to wear that badge. Several people have already mentioned that lawsuits may be the solution to this problem. When people who have lived as women for decades including having had their IDs changed and then have been outed by the media (such as Polis) by being described and identified as their birth name and birth assigned sex despite the fact that they changed those and had their lives destroyed, maybe they should sue.

@Britney Austin,

Thank you so much for making the facts of what bill did crystal clear.

Myself growing up a transsexual woman I have dealt with countless men like Bil who see it as their mission in life to stereotype trans people into their bigoted box of horrors. But when I see so many gay men going in drag these days I can see their jealousy of what we are and they could never be. But now when you couple this with the disgust many gay males have with the very sight of a female body you then get what Bil wrote here. The bottom line is; they pretty much hate straight women and many trans women are straight. Get a life Bil.

The above comment contains Multiple Falsehoods.

I don't know what world you live in Antonia but in my experience the above statement has a lot of truth to it. When I was messing around in the gay community in the early 1990's I was treated like dirt by many gay men and drag queens. All the Transsexuals I met with back then lived well outside of it because of the abuse. Fast forward twenty years and the gay community still has its head ups its ass accept now they claim to speak for us. One thing has stayed the same the most successful transsexuals I know still live outside the gay community.They're thriving and as the "Injustice at every turn" survey shows those who live within the gay community aren't doing so hot.

Fascinating, given that barring some rather incredible technological advances and my being an alien, I live on the same world you do.

And your *experience* doesn't change the fact that your comment contains multiple falsehoods.

About the fairest thing you could say is that they represent your opinion, which is based on information which is false but subject to your narrow, personal experience.

Name the falsehoods Antonia I've been around a lot longer than many of you think. I am older than TG and I'll outlive it. I've lived in Northern Arizona and I can tell you that community wasn't TS supporting unless you call telling you to just be a gay man support.

The above comment is absolutely boring and insignificant.

The above comment contains some serious projection... :p

The above comment contains multiple occurrences of projection, presumption, aversion, and anxiety.

The above comment contains many awesome words.

Wow such a minefield. First off I do agree that Bil and Ashley have a feud with each other and it probably the reason Bil posted it. I am no fan of Ashley Love but it was probably best that he just left this is alone and didn't post this.
Having said that the gay man bashing on here is just as bad. I admit I am not perfect on trans issues and have no idea as a gay man but I try my best. The problem is no matter where I seem to come down on I get bashed. If I am supportive of those who consider themselves TG I get bashed by those who are TS for supporting men who want to dress as women. If I only support those who are TS I am excluding those who want to express themselves but cannot or will not transition. If I support both I get accused of not understanding one side or the other. It is frustrating. I have been called names. Accused of being elitist, sexist etc. If I push for laws on gender identity as I have had in mt home state of Maryland I have been villified by Radfems and some within the TS community. No wonder those who want to be an ally get so frustrated. There seems to be more than one movement in the trans community and you are damned if you do and damned if you don't.
I am very fortunate to have a few acquaintences within the trans community who I have a great rapport with. We became friends when Equality Maryland were deleting posts critical of the organization. Though my beef was originally the posts they were censoring about marriage equality I found they were doing much worst to the trans community. It actually made me aware of the issues that I never knew. I lived in my own coccoon worried about my issues and nothing else. I am grateful to them for opening my eyes and helping to educate me.

Tim, a "feud" usually involves two sides. I don't remember ever seeing Ashley Love post articles that could be considered "feuding" with Bil. Bil posted this for his own reasons which we can be assured, he will never say. He will also not come in here and comment nor will he ever admit any wrong doing or make any apology. He has made incredibly offensive statements against women of transsexual histories. I have a feeling he regrets our being sucked into the LGBT umbrella. In my opinion, I think he wishes there was only a Gay umbrella and all the Lesbian, Transsexuals, Cross-dressers and Bisexuals would just go be quiet somewhere.

He attacked Ashley Love for the sake of attacking her. Her voice is being heard by many people and I guess he can't stand that. Why else would he attack her? Sure,

Sorry Dana I don't see it as an attack per se of Ashley Love or an attack of Ashley in general I just think that Bil really didn't need to post the story. Personally I find Ashley irritating and would never work with someone like her. We obviously share different views of who should be protected and she would heap all kinds of labels on me because I disagree with her.
When I meet someone who is trans I don't ask whether they or TG or TS and whether they have transitioned or plan to. That is frankly none of my business. I accept them as the gender they present. So I don't differentiate between TS and TG. Let me clarify that I consider this totally different than "drag queens and kings" because all the ones I know do not present themselves full time as that gender. They are merely performers. I know there are many in the trans community who hate them but I consider them more of exploring both sides of gender.

Saw this comment as I was checking for SPAM. I'll just throw this out there -

There is no "feud" between Ashley and I. I barely know her other than observing her at Creating Change earlier this year. I don't know her well enough to like her or dislike her. There's no animosity - just a story. I think the various folks making a mountain out of a molehill here have spent scads more time dissecting it all than I did writing it. I didn't even bother to come back and check comments on the post.

She has a reputation of gate crashing and offending lots of folks. That's common knowledge. When a notable trans activist is mentioned coast-to-coast on political blogs for her role in Occupy Wall Street, that's a news item. Reporting her previous behavior is also news.

As for the "Bil hates 'women of transexual history'" bit... Well, that's amazing considering the transgender women seem to think I defend transexuals while the transexuals claim the opposite. The truth? I don't give a shit what you call yourself as long as you have the same rights I do. I don't hate anyone. Several of you annoy the shit out of me with your constant negativity and willingness to find fault in the smallest grain of sand, but "hate" you? That's a lot more energy than I can work up for a whole group of people.

How many gay activists have had to cause disruptions in the oppressor's agendas? I could probably make a very huge list of gay activists who have done that. Let me go back and see what negative reporting you have done on gay activists doing that. Thank goodness for a SPAM filter that actually catches non-spam posts. I have to remember that line, myself. Good one.

People who want liberation...GO DISRUPT THINGS! Stand up for what you feel is right so we can catch up to the gay folks as far as rights are concerned. Bil, please post negative articles about gay activists who have done the same thing. Hugs.

See all of my posts about GetEqual and the lack of strategy when they started. See my critiques of Dan Savage. I can go on and on. I'm an equal opportunity critic.

"...when a post-transition woman goes to a store, mall, or bank, she is treated, identified, and described as a woman. When she goes to work, school, church or temple she is treated, identified, and described as a woman. When she goes to an LGBT environment such as a bar or nightclub, charity event, pride parade, or similar function she is now labeled a "tranny." She may be lesbian or bisexual and thus would fit the L and B categories of LGBT but even if she had SRS and a birth certificate change 30 years ago, they still brand her with the label "tranny." That's not what I call freedom, diversity, and acceptance. It is what I call bigotry. And that is what Bil did in this article. And some of these public outings that the LGBT community has done..."
"....(this)what happened to Chrissy Polis can have severe consequences. It seems to me that the people behind this do not want to allow transsexuals to assimilate into mainstream society. I have witnessed these attitudes on multiple occasions. They don't want to see someone assigned male at birth successfully transition and become a respectable business woman living out a successful life as a woman. They want them to forever be a "tranny" and amount to nothing more than someone who turns tricks at a gay bar on the weekends. Ashley Love and plenty of others do not wish to be a part of this ghetto." ~

Where is the "like" button when you need it? Thank you.

Honestly, it makes no sense to me. This seems to just be a copy-and-paste of bits of Britney's comment above? I don't get the point you are trying to make.

Sam22,
It is interesting you bring up Chrissy Polis in your argument. Do you have any proof that Chrissy is a post-transition woman? I am from the Baltimore area and attended the rally at the McDonalds. I don't know of any report that she had transitioned. In fact all the reporting here she was reported as transgendered. Now reporters may have been using the wrong term but I never heard an outcry from her camp. Which makes my point above. I could care less if she has transitioned or not. She is a woman plain and simple whether she is TG or TS and had every right to use the women's room without being harassed or bullied. In fact the area this occurred is one of the less affluent parts of Baltimore County and is very possible that transitioning might not be economically affordable. If you have something that shows different I could be wrong. Though to me it doesn't matter.

Is this the occupy Bilerico thread?

University of Pennsylvania – Health Insurance and Transsexuals
Filed under: University of Pennsylvania by Dana Lane Taylor — Leave a comment
October 17, 2011






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After close to two years of urging the University of Pennsylvania to remove it’s discriminatory exclusions of treatment for transsexualism from their insurance policy, word has it that they are going to approve it next year. We should be hearing something within the next couple of months.

When I first spoke in front of the University Council at Penn, urging them to remove the exclusionary policy, every single person in the room applauded. They got it. This is life saving treatment and at the least, vastly improving the quality of life for those who suffer from transsexualism.

Penn will be hosting trials for the upcoming DSM-5 so it only makes sense that they would acknowledge that treatment for transsexualism is mandatory and not merely a choice. I can’t see how they could possibly deny it this year, due to this fact alone. Students rallied to get Penn to change the policy for staff and faculty and are planning on addressing it again if denied this year. I am so proud of those students who stood up to Amy Gutmann and Craig Carnaroli. They got a Wharton student to crunch the numbers of what it would actually cost Penn per year and that number was $5,000.

Penn to host DSM-5 Trials

So, keeping my fingers crossed. I know Penn will do the right thing. And our peers will look at us as a model and could have a ripple effect that changes policy in other Ivy Universities, improving the lives of transsexuals there as well.

And to add...I have a phobia of public speaking so this was not an easy thing for me to do. I was mortified. The add that I was talking to my boss's boss's boss's boss's boss just added to the anxiety this caused me. But I HAD to do it.

I need to apologize to everyone for my misguided opinions. I'm sorry.